What Did Chrestos Mean to the Christians Who Used This Title

[Secret Alias]

delete

[Secret Alias]

So just as Chrestos means 'right one' yashar can mean the same. Jastrow:

ישר (b.h.; cmp. אטד) to be firm, strong, healthy; to be straight, right. חך כ ייטר or תילך 'may thy strength (health) be firm', a phrase of approval and thanks. Sabb.
87a , a. fr. (play on אטד, Ex. XXXIV, 1) ששברת כ׳ י׳, be thanked for having broken (the tablets). Gen. B. s. 54 (play on 1 ,וישרנה Sam. VI, 12)חילכם י׳; a. e.—ךישר (ישר)
(sub. כחך) thanks! right! Ber. 42b ; Sabb.53a ; Erub. 32b ; a. fr.—Cmp. אישר. Pi. ךישר,לש׳> to straighten, direct, to make firm. Ex. B. s. 1 (ref. to 1 ,ישר Chr. II, 18)עצמו את שיי׳ כלב זה that is Caleb who kept himself straight (did not yield .to the rest of the spies). Num. B. s. 8 (ref. to Ps. L, 23 דרך ושם) וכי אורתותיו המיישר he who directs his ways straight (pays regard to his doings).—Part. pass. מיושר, f. מיושרת. Pirke d'R. El. ch. X לפני מי׳ דרכי my way is levelled before me.—Meg. 18b (ref. to יישרו, Prov. IV, 25) מיושרין־ וכי אצל הן they remain firm with (in the memory of) &c. צר5 י ch. same. Targ. II Esth. VII, 9 חילך ־ישר; (Var. יטר). [Cant. B. to 1,4 ישריין, v. next w.] Ithpa. אתישר, Ithpe. את־שר to be strengthened. Targ. Y. Deut, X, 2,'

ישר v. אשר. m. (b. h.; preced.) firm•, sound; straight, right, upright. Gen. E . s. 49 המצרים מן 'י זה אברהם this A braham is firmer than all the firm (angels); Yalk. ib. 82 אברהם 'י זח; Midr. Till, to Ps. xi, 7 וכי עולם של לישדיו קודם before they see the Right One of the world, they (the pious) shall behold the faces of the firm (believers); a. fr.—PL ישרים,ישךין. Cant. E . to 1,4 רחמיך ישריין מה, [read as:] Talk.'ib. 98V וכי ישרים מה, expl.וכי מהתקיפין how strong are thy mercies. Midr. Till. 1.0. 'י כת וו .. . כת איוו which is the highest class among those who will greet the countenance of the Divine Presence (in the hereafter)? The "class of the firm believers. Ib. to Ps. XXV, 14 . . . בתחלת ליי לתן ואה״כ first the secret of the Lord is communicated to those who fear him (human beings), and then to the firm ones (the angels, cmp. לצוקים s. v. יצק); Gen. E . s.49; a. e.—Fem.יצצךה,^/. ישרות (sub בעיניו; with ref. to Deut. XII, 8) [right in the eyes of the offerer^ free-will offerings (opp. חיבה). Zeb. 114a ^ תקריבו י׳ free-will sacrifices you may offer (on the bamoth, v.!במי), but no obligatory offerings; ib. 117b . Ib. נינהו י׳ they belong to the class of free-will offerings. Ib. 118a ; a. fr. — הישר ספר the Book Yashar, a lost book (Josh. X, 13; II Sam. I, 18). Ab. Zar. 25a . Y. Sot. I, end, 17°.

[Secret Alias]

The original Aramaic passage cited by Jastrow:

ישר יחזו פנימו קודם לישרו של עולם יחזו פנימל של ישרים׳

This seems to be developed from Psalm 11:7:

For the Lord is righteous, he loves justice; the upright will see his face (יָשָׁר, יֶחֱזוּ פָנֵימוֹ)

and in turn the frequent (faux) etymology from Philo, Justin and the early Christians that Israel = 'a man seeing God.' It is very important to early Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism. Rather than Philo thinking that 'eesh' is at the front of Israel he is really developing an idea in this Psalm.

But there is an angel or a being identified as the Right One of the world (ישרו של עולם) who is the one seen by the Right (Heb. ישר Aram. ישרים) of Israel (יִשְׂרָאֵל).

[Secret Alias]

If - as I suspect - the 'right ones' (ישרים) = Clement's 'right ones' (χρηστοί) I think we've begun to solve the mystery of the origin of Chrestos. The 'right ones' are the 'true Israel' and Chrestos is the angel of Israel.

[Secret Alias]

The Qumran texts 1QS 4:22 and 4Q511 10 7 has the community refer to itself as ישרים so this isn't an abstract name. ישרים was used as a name of Jewish communities. Daniel McClellan wrote this awhile back in the old forum:

For a few references of the Qumran community (or a related community) being referred to as ישרים, "the upright" (the Hebrew equivalent of χρηστοι [cf. LXX Prov 2:21]), see CD 20:2; 1QS 3:1; 4:22; 1QHa 10:12; 4Q171 1–2ii:16; 4Q184 1:14; 4Q257 3:2; 4Q282 1:1; 4Q299 79:2; 4Q424 3:3; 4Q436 1a–bi:2; 4Q510 1:9; 4Q511 2ii:9; 10:7; 60:1. http://frdb.talkfreethought.org/thearch ... stcount=17

So we have an example of someone with excellent Hebrew and Greek skills confirming the equivalence (at least theoretically).

[Peter Kirby]

http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthread585e.html
Interesting that those individual post links not only work (for now) but are linked from http://bcharchive.org.

But please note that they are inaccessible to people not logged in, who get "You are not logged in or you do not have permission to access this page."

The Qumran texts 1QS 4:22 and 4Q511 10 7 has the community refer to itself as ישרים so this isn't an abstract name. ישרים was used as a name of Jewish communities. Daniel McClellan wrote this awhile back in the old forum:

For a few references of the Qumran community (or a related community) being referred to as ישרים, "the upright" (the Hebrew equivalent of χρηστοι [cf. LXX Prov 2:21]), see CD 20:2; 1QS 3:1; 4:22; 1QHa 10:12; 4Q171 1–2ii:16; 4Q184 1:14; 4Q257 3:2; 4Q282 1:1; 4Q299 79:2; 4Q424 3:3; 4Q436 1a–bi:2; 4Q510 1:9; 4Q511 2ii:9; 10:7; 60:1. http://frdb.talkfreethought.org/thearch ... stcount=17

So we have an example of someone with excellent Hebrew and Greek skills confirming the equivalence (at least theoretically).

Interesting...

[Secret Alias]

Could IC XC simply mean 'man (of) right(eousness)' or 'upright man' or 'honest' man cf. Every way of a man is right (אִישׁ יָשָׁר) in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the hearts. Proverbs 21:2. The term or saying also appears everywhere in Hebrew including Qumran - https://books.google.com/books?id=ay2eB ... 22&f=false



איש ישר תמים במעשיו
וכל דרכיו מנעוריו עד
יום פטירתו אהוב ונחמד
לכל יודעיו ומכיריו מו"ר...
An honest and innocent man
and all his actions from his youth
till the day of his death,
were loved and agreeable
by all his acquaintances, reb ...
Fragment of a tombstone, Losice, restored Jewish cemetery, June 2008 http://www.zchor.org/losice/matzevot3.htm

This is certainly very, very close to chrestos (= honest man).

איש זקן ושבע ימים
een oud man en verzadigd van dagen

איש ישר אשר בא בימים
een rechtschapen man, hoogbejaard

איש ישר בדרכי צדיקים
een rechtschapen man op de wegen der rechtvaardigen

איש ישר הולך תמים
een rechtschapen man die de ingetogen weg bewandelt

איש ישר וכשר
een rechtschapen en zuiver man

איש צדיק ישר הוא
een rechtvaardig en rechtschapen mens is hij

איש תם וישר
een ingetogen en rechtschapen man

איש תם וישר ירא אלהים
een ingetogen en rechtschapen, godvrezend man

אישה ישרה ונעימה
een rechtschapen en aangename vrouw

אישה תמה וברה
een ingetogen en zuivere vrouw http://www.dutchjewry.org/phpr/afk/afk_ ... n_list.php

I wonder whether the separation of the name 'Israel' developed from yashar crippled or weakened the Creator. Israel the man and then the nation had power over the Lord of the universe and then when the name was restored to him (IC XC) he transformed into a better god.

[Secret Alias]

Remember the issue for the Marcionites was that Moses was better than his god (i.e. that he controlled him, told him to STFU when he was trippin' to use modern parlance) or if you prefer Tertullian:

The Creator God was even mean enough in his very fierceness, when, in his wrath against the people for their consecration of the golden calf, he makes this request to Moses: "Let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make thee a great nation" (Exodus 32:10). Moses is better than his God, as the deprecator and indeed, the averter of his anger, "For Thou shalt not do this; or else destroy me along with them" (Exodus 32:32).

This weakened state of the Creator is also evidenced in the mystical literature cited above. In kabbalah, Israel controls God through the name 'Israel.' The community gets together not because if they don't, God's going to smack them but because rather if they get together and exhibit 'uprightness' they control God and get him to do what they want. Slight difference that's not always appreciated by scholars. This seems to echo Marcion's point here. Moses was a magician controlling his god.

[Clive]

And science is our magick with which we control the gods.

http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/eps ... gel-t07139

Are we looking at attempts to understand life, the universe and everything?

Judaism, xianity and Islam are one set of iterations, of proposals, the true gods another. Tales of gods becoming human and walking with us and resurrecting are predictable?

[MrMacSon]

So to summarize this rather speculative investigation, I think Chrestos was a Greek translation of an underlying Aramaic terminology which in turn translated the Hebrew terminology for 'Apostle.' According to this premise by the time the Greek translation was made the concept of the sheliach became translated as two separate terms - (a) apostolos and (b) chrestos. But originally there was just one term, a terminology which originally applied to Moses. This will certainly require further refinement. I also suspect that the idea that the 'Father' became manifest in individual men in the post-resurrection period (why Christian priests are called 'fathers' and the Pope is 'grandfather') has something to do with this 'flying Chrestos' figure.

Moses was superceded by Joshua, son of Nun (and Nun can mean fish; Aramaic)