Who is My mother and my brethren?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote:To stand out can mean anything: minor or major distance.
Yes, it can mean "all".

But the best sense might be, that in Mark the scene is in a house. The others (Matthew, Luke, Marcion) understood that Mark has a double meaning here and quoted the "out", but forgot to locate the scene also in a house. ;)
Giuseppe
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Giuseppe »

Mmmm... I see.

But I find a bit curious that in Mark 3:20 the 'house' seems to have the same role that in canonical Luke has the 'crowd' : to separate phisically the family kata sarka from Jesus.

Really the 'crowd' is introduced (for what regards the relatives) in Mark 3:32 (immediately after the presence ''outside'' of his relatives) but his function is another:

Mark 3:34 :
Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!

Therefore in Mark while the 'house'' serves to introduce the dycothomy inside/outside (to use against the relatives), the 'crowd' serves to make the point about true family.

Luke and Matthew had no need of a 'house', since the 'crowd' is sufficient to separate Jesus from relatives.

This would seem a thin clue that even Mark is reacting against Mcn! :wtf:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Bernard Muller »

I disagree entirely on this point. 'Your mother' means 'your blood mother' and this is very clear. Marcion put these words in mouth of people that didn't know the true identity of Jesus. These people thought (wrongly) that Jesus was a human Messiah but a Messiah that is reluctant to reveal itself in glory (against the Romans), therefore they want to move Jesus to reveal his true identity.
But why Marcion would have one woman and some younger men claimed to be the blood mother & the blood brothers of Jesus? Please note that Jesus' remark is not rejecting these people as being part of his blood family. That goes against Marcion's christology and therefore self-defeating. So it is clear Marcion did not want to have this passage interpreted that way.
And certainly the readers/listeners of this passage, who already knew Jesus could not have a blood human family according to Marcion's christology, would have thought this appellation of mother & brothers only meant followers of Jesus. This is what Marcion wanted them to understand.
You should read the incipit of Evangelion in order to understand what I just said:
1:1 Beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 1:2 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, 1:3 when Jesus came down from above, he appeared and began teaching in the synagogue. 1:4 And all were puzzled at the gracious words coming out of His mouth. 1:5 And they said, ‘Isn’t this Joseph’s son? 1:6 Let be! What have we to do with you, Jesus! Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are – the Holy One of God.’ 1:7 But Jesus rebuked him and said to them: ‘No doubt you will quote to me the proverb, “Physician, heal yourself!”’ 1:8 They got up, forced him out of the town, and brought him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they could throw him down the cliff. 1:9 But he passed through the crowd and went on his way. 1:10 As the sun was setting, <all those who had any relatives sick with various diseases brought them to him.> He placed his hands on them and healed them. 1:11 Demons also came out, crying out: ‘You are the Son of God!’ 1:12 But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.

source:http://markusvinzent.blogspot.it/2011/0 ... k-and.html
I wonder from where that Vinzent got that text, with no mention of Capernaum, mention of Joseph, etc.
That goes against the reconstructions of gMarcion I know of. And what Tertullian witnessed:
In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius (for such is Marcion's proposition) he "came down to the Galilean city of Capernaum,"
And which synagogue? Rather strange "the synagogue" is not located, except as being in Galilee.
And certainly, Tertullian would have made a point against Marcion on "Joseph's son" if it were in gMarcion.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Giuseppe
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Giuseppe »

About Vinzent's reconstruction of incipit I can't vouch of course (although I think the prof has surely its well founded reasons).

But it's this point that just I don't realize:

But why Marcion would have one woman and some younger men claimed to be the blood mother & the blood brothers of Jesus? Please note that Jesus' remark is not rejecting these people as being part of his blood family. That goes against Marcion's christology and therefore self-defeating. So it is clear Marcion did not want to have this passage interpreted that way.
Jesus's remark is not meant to reject only these people ''as being part of his blood family'' (quasi assuming he had a priori a blood family, only 'not' that family), but it is intended to reject the entire concept of phisical sonship and brotherhood with someone. This is perfectly coherent with Marcion's christology.
And certainly the readers/listeners of this passage, who already knew Jesus could not have a blood human family according to Marcion's christology, would have thought this appellation of mother & brothers only meant followers of Jesus. This is what Marcion wanted them to understand.
Sorry, but I don't realize your concept. I don't think that the simple rethorical question ''Who are my mother and my brothers?'' (likely marcionite answer: nothing) implies by necessity that ''this appellation of mother & brothers only meant followers of Jesus'', as you say.

at most you can say that in Marcion Jesus takes the opportunity to say that his true and only family are only those who do his words (and his alone).

This is surely true, in an absolute sense. While in Luke a carnal brother of Jesus could be also his true spiritual brother (obviously becoming Christian), in Mcn this is not possible because there are no carnal brothers a priori.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Bernard Muller »

About Vinzent's reconstruction of incipit I can't vouch of course (although I think the prof has surely its well founded reasons).
Maybe you should inquire where Vinzent got that and not trust him blindly.
Jesus's remark is not meant to reject only these people ''as being part of his blood family'' (quasi assuming he had a priori a blood family, only 'not' that family), but it is intended to reject the entire concept of phisical sonship and brotherhood with someone. This is perfectly coherent with Marcion's christology.
You did not read me correctly: I said: "Please note that Jesus' remark is not rejecting these people as being part of his blood family."
And I do not see why that remark would remove the possibility that the mother and brothers are not from Jesus' blood family.
Marcion's version only raises doubts about the mother and brothers outside being blood relatives
The reason that Marcion is not clear about the "mother" and "brothers" standing outside NOT being from Jesus' blood family is because he felt obligated not to change the wording from gLuke.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Secret Alias
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Secret Alias »

Maybe you should stop supposing (as always Bernard) that you have enough information with which to make an absolutely firm opinion about a lost culture like the Marcionites. Your enemy (as always) is your psychological need to arrange everything into neat boxes. The question (should be) "how did the Marcionites arrive at their conclusions" rather than (as is always the case with you) "how best can we ignore the Marcionites/how best to remove the obstacle that their opinion represents which prevents us from limiting the discussion to our inherited documents and conclusions." In the same way as our legal system puts the emphasis on assuming innocence we HAVE TO begin any serious discussion as defense attorneys for the Marcionites simply because they have no representation. Any other effort or approach necessarily reaches the conclusions demanded by the apologetic writings of the Church Fathers.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Secret Alias »

As I have argued many times before we should have 'small' but separate discussions about (a) what any given passage meant for the orthodox and (b) meant for the Marcionites and do not go any further than that. From there we may argue which interpretation has more plausibility/which came first. But this rush to dismiss anything that gets in the way of assuming that our New Testament collection is pristine is simply moronic. There is absolutely no chance of that being true. That doesn't mean the Marcionite text is pristine. But the surviving texts are not original because even fucking Irenaeus the arch-apologist of the tradition has to concede that this wasn't true (i.e. Matthew was the first gospel and it was originally written in another language not Greek).

I see my role at the forum to remind ------ like Bernard that their pre-existent psychological need for order causes them to give too much value to the existing textual material. I don't accuse professional scholars of this mistake because they are getting paid to assume that. An amateur shouldn't be as obtuse.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Secret Alias wrote:As I have argued many times before we should have 'small' but separate discussions about (a) what any given passage meant for the orthodox and (b) meant for the Marcionites and do not go any further than that.
I do not think that this classification (orthodox, Marionites) is appropriate with regard to the texts of the Gospels. In some points Mark and Matthew may differ more as Luke and Marcion. But the texts have a relationship, which seems to be much closer than the ideologies behind them. Small changes can mean a lot. It is obvious that the texts have a common root.
Giuseppe
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Giuseppe »

I am very curious to read all coming monographs by Vinzent about Marcion (even if I would like to read in his place Klinghardt - if only it was in English and not in German! -, since I find 'thin apology' in Vinzent's view that the individual Marcion wrote the earliest gospel and not instead his precursors before him)
Marcion's version only raises doubts about the mother and brothers outside being blood relatives
precisely.
The reason that Marcion is not clear about the "mother" and "brothers" standing outside NOT being from Jesus' blood family is because he felt obligated not to change the wording from gLuke.
The reason that Luke is very much clear about the "mother" and "brothers" standing outside BEING from Jesus' blood family is because he felt obligated to add Luke 8:19 in original marcionite wording with an entire 'crowd' to separate them from Jesus.

(Idem for Matthew)

The reason that Mark is very much clear about the "mother" and "brothers" standing outside BEING from Jesus' blood family is because he felt obligated to add Mark 3:20 with an entire 'house' to separate them from Jesus casting the previous 'crown' in ''a crowd sitting around him'' ready to receive a special designation (as true family) by Jesus himself when he ''looked at those seated in a circle around him'' (Mark 3:34).

good continuation,
Giuseppe
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Who is My mother and my brethren?

Post by Bernard Muller »

The reason that Luke is very much clear about the "mother" and "brothers" standing outside BEING from Jesus' blood family is because he felt obligated to add Luke 8:19 in original marcionite wording with an entire 'crowd' to separate them from Jesus.

(Idem for Matthew)

The reason that Mark is very much clear about the "mother" and "brothers" standing outside BEING from Jesus' blood family is because he felt obligated to add Mark 3:20 with an entire 'house' to separate them from Jesus casting the previous 'crown' in ''a crowd sitting around him'' ready to receive a special designation (as true family) by Jesus himself when he ''looked at those seated in a circle around him'' (Mark 3:34).
Don't you think Marcion could not have done a better job in showing that "your mother and your brothers" were not the blood mother and blood brothers of Jesus?
And Marcion stating:
"Thy mother and thy brethren stand without", but not saying what the "without" is relative to,
AND
not explaining why the mother & brothers were unable to get at Jesus (no mention of a crowd in between),
do show lacks (holes) in his narration.

"Luke", "Matthew" and "Mark" are very much clear because their narration is complete when the one of Marcion is truncated (that is because of one verse missing: Lk 8:19), creating holes and uncertainty (are these mother & brothers true blood relative of Jesus or not? unresolved).

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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