Recent books & articles about Marcion

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DCHindley
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Re: Recent books & articles about Marcion

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MrMacSon wrote:.
Dieter T. Roth (2009) 'Towards a New Reconstruction of the Text of Marcion’s Gospel:
  • History of Research, Sources, Methodology, and the Testimony of Tertullian.' A Thesis Submitted for the Degree of Ph.D. in New Testament and Christian Origins, The University of Edinburgh.

    available online - https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/ ... sequence=1
    • Please note the terms and conditions of use on the first page

      It seems to be an extremely thorough study
I downloaded it this morning, mainly for the list of sources for the various correlations with the Gospel of Luke. I agree, a very detailed study. He is much more interested in reconstructing the text of Marcion's "Gospel" than BeDuhn, who is happy to simply get the gist of it, which is the best he thinks we can realistically do.
Sebastian Moll (2010) 2009 PhD dissertation: 'At the Left Hand of Christ: The Arch-Heretic Marcion'

- https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/ ... sequence=2
I found Moll to be a bit, umm, weird. Especially when he compares Marcion with a brat acting up against the Creator God by acts of "trotz" such as refusing to multiply to fill the earth with more people (although he had no problem being fruitful), or to eat meat to spite the Creator's sacrificial system (even though it had ended 80+ years before his time). Moll's got an angle all right ... :scratch:

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Re: Recent books & articles about Marcion

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Moll is a moron
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Recent books & articles about Marcion

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DCHindley wrote:Not sure, though, why he decided an English translation of the gist of Marcion's Gospel and Pauline books was better than attempting to reconstruct the Greek text ...
Presenting a Greek text would imply knowledge of the Greek text and would, for at least 90% of the material, tend to be even more misleading about the state of our knowledge of the text. (It is already very hard to avoid being misleading about what we know of the 'gist' of the text.)

It's better not to be misleading. There are Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. There are Latin and Syriac manuscripts of the New Testament. There are Latin manuscripts of Tertullian and Greek manuscripts of Epiphanius. There are critical texts of all of these. More useful than a phony "reconstruction" are the references to the primary literature that allow comparison of their wording against the text of the New Testament.

In general terms, most of what is believed to be likely to be the exact Greek text of Marcion's NT, which doesn't come from the manuscripts of the NT themselves (in any case), are the quotations found in the Panarion of Epiphanius, in part of book 1 about Marcion.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: Recent books & articles about Marcion

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I'm not sure how this fits with DCH's or Peter K's comments on the role of Greek stuff, but I'll put it here, anyway.
(the paragraphing is my 'editing').
... in agreement with those who have returned to the view that Tertullian used a Greek copy
of Marcion’s Apostolikon,14 I have defended the view that Tertullian also had a Greek copy
and not a Latin translation of Marcion’s Gospel when writing Adversus Marcionem.15

In that article, I have argued that in considering this issue it is important not only to consider
the differences in the Latin terms found in the attested texts for Marcion’s Gospel and the citation of
those same texts elsewhere in Tertullian’s corpus, but also the similiarities.16

Both these similarities and differences must then be compared to readings in extant Old Latin witnesses.

On the one hand, the agreement of Latin terminology between Marcion’s Gospel and
Tertullian’s text against the attested readings in Old Latin witnesses becomes an
argument against Tertullian working from a Latin copy of Marcion’s Gospel, and, on
the other hand, differences in the terminology between Marcion’s Gospel and
Tertullian’s text, where neither reading is attested in the extant witnesses, may also
confirm that the variation is due to Tertullian’s own translations rather than his
working from a Latin copy of Marcion’s Gospel. An examination of the 87 Greek
terms rendered in verses attested both for Marcion’s Gospel and elsewhere in
Tertullian’s corpus reveals that Marcion’s Gospel and Tertullian’s text agree in their
Latin renderings on 51 occasions, or 59% of the time. Of these 51 agreements, in
about one-third of them the agreement is in renderings that are completely unique or
rather uncommon in the extant Latin textual tradition for that verse. In addition,
when Marcion’s Gospel and Tertullian’s text disagree, 69% of the time one of their
respective renderings is not found within, or only at the periphery of, the surviving
Old Latin textual tradition.

It is surely simpler to explain these phenomena through the view that Tertullian himself
is largely responsible for the Latin of Marcion’s text as he translated it ad hoc
from the Greek than to persist in Harnack’s view that Tertullian had a Latin translation
of Marcion’s Gospel when he wrote Adversus Marcionem.17
Undoubtedly, the view that Tertullian is translating from the Greek,
rather than copying from a Latin Vorlage, will lead one to view his testimony to
Marcion’s Gospel somewhat differently than Harnack.18

Dieter T. Roth (2009) Towards a New Reconstruction of the Text of Marcion’s Gospel: 14 Though Harnack’s position found significant support in the twentieth century, several
scholars have now questioned and challenged his view. See, for example,
  • Hermann Josef Frede, ed., Epistulae ad Ephesios (VL 24/1; Freiburg: Herder, 1962–1964), 30*
    and Epistulae ad Philippenses et ad Colossenses (VL 24/2; Freiburg: Herder, 1966–1971), 9;
  • Bonifatius Fischer, “Das Neue Testament in lateinischer Sprache: Der gegenwärtige Stand seiner
    Erforschung und seine Bedeutung für die griechische Textgeschichte,”
    in Die alten Übersetzungen des Neuen Testaments, die Kirchenväterzitate und Lektionare:
    Der gegenwärtige Stand ihrer Erforschung und ihre Bedeutung für die griechische Textgeschichte

    (ed. K. Aland; ANTF 5; Berlin: de Gruyter, 1972), 10–11, 26n73, and 31n88;
  • Clabeaux, A Lost Edition, 49–57; and
  • Schmid, Marcion und sein Apostolos, 40–59.
15 See Dieter T. Roth, (2009) “Did Tertullian Possess a Greek Copy or Latin Translation of Marcion’s Gospel?,” 16 This point was also made by Schmid, Marcion und sein Apostolos, 46.

17 For the full argument the interested reader is referred to the article referenced in n. 15.

18 See also the observations by Schmid, Marcion und sein Apostolos, 40 and 40n31.
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DCHindley
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Re: Recent books & articles about Marcion

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Peter Kirby wrote:
DCHindley wrote:Not sure, though, why he decided an English translation of the gist of Marcion's Gospel and Pauline books was better than attempting to reconstruct the Greek text ...
Presenting a Greek text would imply knowledge of the Greek text and would, for at least 90% of the material, tend to be even more misleading about the state of our knowledge of the text. (It is already very hard to avoid being misleading about what we know of the 'gist' of the text.)

It's better not to be misleading. There are Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. There are Latin and Syriac manuscripts of the New Testament. There are Latin manuscripts of Tertullian and Greek manuscripts of Epiphanius. There are critical texts of all of these. More useful than a phony "reconstruction" are the references to the secondary literature that allow comparison of their wording against the text of the New Testament.

In general terms, most of what is believed to be likely to be the exact Greek text of Marcion's NT, which doesn't come from the manuscripts of the NT themselves (in any case), are the quotations found in the Panarion of Epiphanius, in part of book 1 about Marcion.
Welcome to the world of reconstructing no longer existent texts. The little linguistic clues as to the language and wording of a reading being slandered/commented-upon by the ancient sources (Tertullian, Epiphanius, Clement, Origen, Ephrem, etc) are important. However, as the article by Roth that MrMacSon linked to (thanks, BTW) makes clear, the impediments to identifying the original language much less the precise word(s) and/or form(s) of word(s) are legion. We really only know:

1) which passages (corresponding to Luke or Pauline letters) appear to be cited directly,
2) which are alluded to as present or not present without citing text,
3) and which are not so much as mentioned.

Hence the usefulness of Roth's table in his 2009 PhD thesis.* I love tables for the sheer amount of useful info they can contain in a form that is convenient for purposes of comparison. BeDuhn, for his part, when he presents the texts of the Evangelion and Apostolikon uses a large number of extremely odd fonts and a layout that makes OCR of his book rather difficult, perhaps on purpose.

While BeDuhn chooses to provide English translations of these passages from Luke, and often modifies them from the forms encountered in modern translations so they reflect the nuances of the underlying text of our sources, my biggest complaints are that he prefers endnotes to footnotes, but uses two different methods to organize them:

a) In the English text of both Evangelion and Apostolikon, the critical notes immediately follow the texts, rather than be right below the text being laid out.
b) In the General Introduction, chapters 1 & 2 on Marcion and his NT in general, and the introductions to the texts of the Evangelion and Apostolikon, the end notes are tucked in a long section appended to the very rear of the book.

Personally, I prefer to see footnotes rather than endnotes, as it creates a form of disconnect to have to mark the page you were reading, then leaf back to locate the corresponding endnote. I suppose, though, that this can be rather more difficult to do than use endnotes.

DCH :goodmorning:

*FWIW, I have created a Word file that contains this table and the corresponding footnotes as endnotes after each section (yes, even I violate my prime directives about footnotes vs. endnotes, for convenience), which I cannot cite extensively online due to those restrictions in the front of the online PDF document, but will happily make available to anyone who asks.
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Re: Recent books & articles about Marcion

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MrMacSon wrote:
Vincent M (2014) 'Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels' (Studia patristica supplement 2) Leuven: Peeters.
  • Summary: Are the Synoptic Gospels at odds with Early Christian art and archaeology? Art and archaeology cannot provide the material basis 'to secure the irrefutable inner continuity' of the Christian beginnings (Erich Dinkler); can the Synoptic Gospels step in? Their narratives, however, are as absent from the first hundred and fourty years of early Christianity as are their visual imageries. 'Many of the dates confidently assigned by modern experts to the New Testament documents', especially the Gospels, rest 'on presuppositions rather than facts' (J.A.T. Robinson, 1976). The present volume is the first systematic study of all available early evidence that we have about the first witness to our Gospel narratives, Marcion of Sinope. It evaluates our commonly known arguments for dating the Synoptic Gospels, elaborates on Marcion's crucial role in the Gospel making and argues for a re-dating of the Gospels to the years between 138 and 144 AD.
"One of the most important insights of my 'Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels' (2014) was the discovery that Marcion’s Gospel existed in two different versions, first as a pre-published, presumably stand-alone draft, and secondly as a published edition with the framing of the Antitheses and the 10 Pauline Letters. How did I derive to this conclusion? The key text in this respect is Tertullian, Adversus Marcionem IV 4,2 which, in a second step, I’d like to put into the broader frame of Tertullian’s discussion of Marcion’s Antitheses and his Gospel in Adversus Marcionem IV 1-5, so that we can follow Tertullian’s arguments ..." continued - http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com.au/20 ... ospel.html

"Vinzent’s book doesn’t simply assert priority of Marcions’ Gospel over the canonical text of Luke, but asserts that Marcion’s Gospel preceded all the canonical Gospels." Larry Hurtado blog-post comment

"Vinzent’s views are unique in the renewed debates concerning Marcion’s Gospel in that he believes that Marcion wrote the first Gospel ever written and that all four of our canonical Gospels used Marcion’s Gospel as a source. In his own words, “Marcion, who created the new literary genre of the ‘Gospel’ and also gave the work this title, had no historical precedent in the combination of Christ’s sayings and narratives” (p. 277).
"Vinzent essentially attempts to construct his case on two foundations: first, and foremost, on the basis of his reading of several important sources for and works on Marcion’s Gospel; and second, on the basis of what Vinzent presumes to be the content and readings of Marcion’s Gospel."
- Dieter Roth https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2015 ... n-marcion/
Markus Vinzent's latest blogpost is about this book. I will take liberties and reproduce it here -

I am in the process of reading your book ‘Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels’ ...

Today I had a reader giving a fantastic summary of my argument and asked great questions, for which I am extremely grateful:

I am in the process of reading your book ‘Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels’ and wanted to make sure I am understanding your argument correctly before I use it in my essay.

Put in simple terms- Marcion's gospel was the first, however it was a draft and he did not put his name on it.

  • > correct (as authors did not put their names on either drafts or texts not meant to be published, or other people's texts - although the latter sometimes happened as one can see in pseudepigraphy. But Marcion did not write anything pseudepigraphical; the letters of Paul which he collected, he correctly gave as the letters of Paul, and Colossians and Laodiceans[=Ephesians] he certainly took for authentically Paul's letters).
The four gospels used/plagiarised it, and rewrote it with additions concerning Christianity's link to Judaism.
  • >correct again, that is what Marcion, according to Tertullian, states (you can also check my new monograph on this topic Tertullian's Preface to Marcion's Gospel1, Leuven:Peeters 2016).
This angered him, did he then rewrite another one? Taking out the things they added concerning Judaism?
  • >It angered him, as he saw his intention distorted. He did not write another one (perhaps only slightly updated it), but now he decided to publish it together with the preface on which Tertullian relies, and together with 10 Pauline Letters. This is the book he called by the term he coined, "The New Testament," to make it absolutely clear, that this New Testament should not be linked (as in the plagiarising Gospels) with what already Paul had called the Old Testament (now taken by Marcion as a book).
If this is correct, would it be possible to form an argument that it may be true Christianity therefore did not come from Jewish roots as he wrote the original doctrine and none of the links were included? Or is it more reasonable to say that due to his determination to make Christianity separate he just didn't include the obvious links to Judaism? And the four gospels realised this and therefore rewrote it including the important common tradition?
  • >I would think along a middle line between your two thoughts. Don't forget, even if you want to distinguish yourself from what you now construct to be 'Judaism', you start from this construction of yours. And in this regard the 'New' is not such a novelty as you want to have it. And in this regard, Marcion is not fundamentally different from those who plagiarised them - the difference lies in that he consciously wanted to dissociate himself, and what he perceived and even termed to be 'Christianity,' from what he saw to be 'Judaism' and begin a separate...tradition', whereas his plagiarisers saw 'Christianity' as heirs of the Jewish tradition which disinherited all those other Jews who, from now on, were no longer regarded as 'verus Israel' (true Israel), as Justin states.
http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com.au/20 ... -book.html

1 Tertullian's Preface to Marcion's Gospel

Series: Studia Patristica Supplements, 5
Author: Vinzent M.

Summary:
Over the past few years, scholarship has taken a new interest in the study of Marcion and particularly in his Gospel. Most recently several attempts have been made at reconstructing this Gospel, and its role in the Synoptic question is being discussed. One of the most detailed and crucial information that we possess derives from Tertullian's preface to Marcion's Gospel and his Antitheses with which Marcion himself introduced and defended his Gospel against earlier misuses. The present monograph first looks at Tertullian's ways of prefacing his works to then move to his preface of his anti-marcionite writings, especially Adversus Marcionem, to then give the text, translation and a close reading and interpretation of his introduction to the Antitheses and Marcion's Gospel in the extended preface to book IV of Adversus Marcionem. As a result, the reader will get a better understanding of both Tertullian's literary response to Marcion and Marcion's Antitheses and his Gospel, [and] also gain glimpses of what, despite all the rhetoric historically, might have provoked Tertullian's response, namely more intellectual proximity between the two interlocutors than the-battle-on-the-surface would intimate.

http://www.peeters-leuven.be/boekoverz_ ... p?nr=10090
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