An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Covering all topics of history and the interpretation of texts, posts here should conform to the norms of academic discussion: respectful and with a tight focus on the subject matter.

Moderator: andrewcriddle

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote:Anyways, I am not so certain that the Ethiopic word variously translated "concealed" (Laurence & Isaac), or "hidden" (Charles) means that the son of man was never before known, but that he was "preserved" in the presence of the Most High's power/might.
That may be a fair statement. Nevertheless, him dwelling in the presence of God would mean that only revelation would reveal him, right?
It seems this might explain why Laurence felt obliged to translate "existed in secret" the same word, it seems, that the others translate "preserved".
There seems to be a word (or two) missing in this sentence. I am not sure what you are saying.
That is, in the beginning (of world history, before the flood), he was preserved (taken up, translated) to be with God. He was not "hidden" so much as "secreted away" where he was safe, because God had a plan to use him in the day of Judgment. However, he was in the meantime "revealed to the (holy and ) elect ones" among mankind, I suppose by means of the books of his experiences while traveling in heaven, which he had left for them.
Good point. And later tradents do not necessarily have to interpret the words in the exact same way they were originally intended. In this case, even if the revelation of this heavenly figure was supposed to start almost immediately, there is still a very real sense in which only the elect know about him. If the earliest Christians then dig out a few additional details (from 1 Enoch and other scriptures) about him, that is simply more revelation intended for the elect.

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
DCHindley wrote:Anyways, I am not so certain that the Ethiopic word variously translated "concealed" (Laurence & Isaac), or "hidden" (Charles) means that the son of man was never before known, but that he was "preserved" in the presence of the Most High's power/might.
That may be a fair statement. Nevertheless, him dwelling in the presence of God would mean that only revelation would reveal him, right?
It seems this might explain why Laurence felt obliged to translate "existed in secret" the same word, it seems, that the others translate "preserved".
There seems to be a word (or two) missing in this sentence. I am not sure what you are saying.
My Ethiopic is non-existent, but I suspect that the same word (highlighted in red) is being translated differently by the three translators. I am suggesting, when coupled with the word I have highlighted in blue, that the meaning of the red word is more likely "sheltered away from the rest of mankind" than "hidden" in the sense of being a mystery.

R. Laurence (1821, Revised by Charles Gill, 1883)
R. H. Charles (1913)
E. Isaac (1983)
Enoch 61:10a Then shall the kings, the princes, and all who possess the earth, glorify him who has dominion over all things, him who was concealed; 1EN 62:6 And the kings and the mighty and all who possess the earth shall bless and glorify and extol him who rules over all, who was hidden. 62:6 (These) kings, governors, and all the landlords shall (try to) bless, glorify, extol him who rules over everything, him who has been concealed.
Enoch 61:10b for from the beginning the Son of man existed in secret, whom the Most High preserved in the presence of his power, and revealed to the elect. 1EN 62:7 For from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden, And the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might, And revealed him to the elect. 62:7 For the Son of Man was concealed from the beginning, and the Most High One preserved him in the presence of his power; then he revealed him to the holy and the elect ones.k
Enoch 61:11 He shall sow the congregation of the saints, and of the elect; and all the elect shall stand before him in that day. 1EN 62:8 And the congregation of the elect and holy shall be sown, And all the elect shall stand before him on that day. 62:8 The congregation of the holy onesl shall be planted,m and all the elect ones shall stand before him.

That is, in the beginning (of world history, before the flood), he was preserved (taken up, translated) to be with God. He was not "hidden" so much as "secreted away" where he was safe, because God had a plan to use him in the day of Judgment. However, he was in the meantime "revealed to the (holy and ) elect ones" among mankind, I suppose by means of the books of his experiences while traveling in heaven, which he had left for them.
Good point. And later tradents do not necessarily have to interpret the words in the exact same way they were originally intended. In this case, even if the revelation of this heavenly figure was supposed to start almost immediately, there is still a very real sense in which only the elect know about him. If the earliest Christians then dig out a few additional details (from 1 Enoch and other scriptures) about him, that is simply more revelation intended for the elect.
One of the things I am realizing about Enoch traditions is that the role of Enoch is quite different in the Enoch literature we know has been preserved among the DSS, than his role in the Parables.

In the former case Enoch is an earthly diplomat who at the request of the fallen Watchers presents their petition for lenience and reconciliation to God, but must return with the bad news that there will be no reconciliation and that their evil in unleashing havoc among the human inhabitants of earth deserves severe punishment for the rest of their eternal existence.

In the latter case, Enoch is destined to become a judge of the kings and powerful who have unjustly lorded over the righteous among men, and will sentence these unjust men to the same fate as has befallen/will befall the fallen angels.

Since Enoch was not aware of this when he first tours heaven (presumably to argue the Watchers' petition for leniency), he is actually watching himself realizing this role as a judge in the future, describing the figure he sees as a "son of man" (a human being). Only at the end of the Parables does he get told that he is in fact that "human being" he had seen.

Oh, that human being who acts as judge over the kings and the powerful is elevated to a very high position, beside God himself, but it doesn't require him to be divine or even a secret.

As in the DSS Enoch literature, where after delivering the bad news to the Watchers, he leaves with his righteous descendants books describing what he saw in the heavens before ultimately carried off (translated) to be with God. The only difference is that in the Parables Enoch has a stake in future events.

The "plant of righteousness" and the elect ones are those who learned from his books and lived righteously. They knew about him because they cherished his books(s), and lived righteously. The unjust did not cherish his legacy and oppressed others, much like the children of the Watchers had, and will meet their unfortunate fate, just like the Watchers did/will, in the last day judgment.

I think we all try just a little too hard to find analogies with Jesus as THE "Son of Man" in Christian tradition, particularly the Gospels.

DCH
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote:My Ethiopic is non-existent, but I suspect that the same word (highlighted in red) is being translated differently by the three translators. I am suggesting, when coupled with the word I have highlighted in blue, that the meaning of the red word is more likely "sheltered away from the rest of mankind" than "hidden" in the sense of being a mystery.
My Ethiopic is nonexistent as well. I can go only by what the translators offer.
I think we all try just a little too hard to find analogies with Jesus as THE "Son of Man" in Christian tradition, particularly the Gospels.
So you do not think that 1 Enoch even belongs to the circle of literature that may have inspired the template(s) which Christians eventually applied to their Christ? The book should not even be considered in that respect?

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
DCHindley wrote:My Ethiopic is non-existent, but I suspect that the same word (highlighted in red) is being translated differently by the three translators. I am suggesting, when coupled with the word I have highlighted in blue, that the meaning of the red word is more likely "sheltered away from the rest of mankind" than "hidden" in the sense of being a mystery.
My Ethiopic is nonexistent as well. I can go only by what the translators offer.
I think we all try just a little too hard to find analogies with Jesus as THE "Son of Man" in Christian tradition, particularly the Gospels.
So you do not think that 1 Enoch even belongs to the circle of literature that may have inspired the template(s) which Christians eventually applied to their Christ? The book should not even be considered in that respect?
I'm trying to zero in on this very issue over in my thread in the Judaism sub-forum.

I do think that there is an overlap between the end-of-age judge of men called a "son of man" by the group which produced the Parables of Enoch, and Christian dogma related to Jesus as found in the four Gospels, but the Christian version is quite a bit more developed, introducing concepts of divinity which I just do not think are to be found in the Parables. In the Parables, Enoch is a man and remains a man, although he will be the judge of mankind in the eschaton and usher in a blessed messianic age. In short, God will properly judge the depraved "sons of god" (angels) while a man will properly judge depraved men.

I will say that the author(s) of the Parables of Enoch (in 1 Enoch) seem to be peasants in the southern part of Syria, probably Itureans, and they were not at all happy with their lot, and the fact that atrocious wars were being fought by the "kings and powerful of the land" who had devastated the landscape and treated the local people badly, then got off "scot free" with a little slap on the hand by the victorious party if they plea for leniency and reconciliation. The example of the judgment of the Watchers by God, who did NOT let them go scot free, is adopted as the model for final rectification of the evils committed by men. While the backdrop may be the territorial wars between the Romans and the Parthians, these extended over hundreds of years, making dating difficult.

I had hoped that the book Parables of Enoch: A Paradigm Shift edited by Darrell Bock & James H. Charlesworth might help sort out the issue, but I am seriously disappointed in the book as a whole. So far, there has not been a whole lot of interaction in my thread there, but Peter was sent a duplicate copy Amazon had mailed to me and I hope he will add his 2 cents. Just like the "who wrote the non-biblical DSS?" debate, which can get rather hot with everybody trying to claim them for "Judaism" if they approve of what is found inside them, or marginalize them when they don't like the kind of Judaism they seem to represent, the same thing appears to be happening with the Parables of Enoch.

Nobody can even agree on the time or place of composition, as the only datable events are a Parthian invasion and earthquakes, but there were numerous occurrences of both these things over the two or three centuries on either side of the turn of the common era. The attempts to force a date in the beginning of Herod's reign seem to me to be apologetically motivated, for reasons enumerated in that thread.

I'm afraid I gotta go back to bed, so will have to leave it at this.

DCH :crazy:
Secret Alias
Posts: 18761
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by Secret Alias »

I just want to say DCH that I have been following your other thread and your comments here and have really enjoyed reading everything. I am just up to my eyeballs in soccer tournaments and work. I will say that your statements about the development of Enoch are particularly instructive with respect to Ben's work on Hebrews. There is this tendency in every generation to 'reinterpret' religious texts in light of popular belief. Take the gay marriage debate today. I am all for gay marriage but I am not nor have ever been a religious believer. So I don't find any need to reinterpret religious texts in a shoddy way to make them line up with contemporary dogma. Now people today don't have the ability to completely rewrite the Bible so it aligns with 'same sex marriage.' But in antiquity there were wholesale rewriting efforts in every age in every school of thought. In Samaritan literature the Dositheans complain that mainstream Samaritanism changed the words of the Torah. The same argument appears in Jewish literature and certainly in early Christian literature. But we as students of religion ignore this tendency for revision and want to believe that our texts aren't full of wholesale corruptions rendering them almost useless for knowing what the first users of the texts thought, believed. Why is there this denial? Because we would give up trying to figure out what the first believers believed. In other words, lying and being dishonest are a survival mechanism.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:So you do not think that 1 Enoch even belongs to the circle of literature that may have inspired the template(s) which Christians eventually applied to their Christ? The book should not even be considered in that respect?
I'm trying to zero in on this very issue over in my thread in the Judaism sub-forum.

I do think that there is an overlap between the end-of-age judge of men called a "son of man" by the group which produced the Parables of Enoch, and Christian dogma related to Jesus as found in the four Gospels, but the Christian version is quite a bit more developed, introducing concepts of divinity which I just do not think are to be found in the Parables. In the Parables, Enoch is a man and remains a man, although he will be the judge of mankind in the eschaton and usher in a blessed messianic age. In short, God will properly judge the depraved "sons of god" (angels) while a man will properly judge depraved men.
To be clear, I do not think that anybody read the Parables of Enoch and developed the full Christology that we find in the epistles directly from them. Rather, I think that the passage I highlighted from 1 Enoch belongs to an even broader pattern of hiding, revealing to the few, and revealing to the many. That particular passage just happened to be handily compact.

Speaking of which, I think that hiding is hiding and preserving is preserving. Again, I have no Ethiopic, so I rely on the translations. But I do not find it a priori unlikely that both concepts should be present in this verse. Psalm 32.7 also contains this twin notion of hiding and preserving (in the Hebrew; the LXX obscures the hiding a bit); part of God preserving the psalmist is God hiding the psalmist (from enemies). This is especially the case if, as we find in 1 Enoch, the hiding and preserving are linked with the concept of revelation. In fact, pretty much anything heavenly is going to be, as a matter of course, a secret from humanity, one which has to be revealed (to the elect, in this case) if humanity is going to know about it. So I do still think that the 3-step template is present in this passage; that said, as I intimated before, I do not think it stands alone in ancient Judaic literature; I think it is part of a broader pattern.

Bear in mind, also, that I am not drawing on the son of man issue at all for any of this.

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote:Speaking of which, I think that hiding is hiding and preserving is preserving. Again, I have no Ethiopic, so I rely on the translations. But I do not find it a priori unlikely that both concepts should be present in this verse. Psalm 32.7 also contains this twin notion of hiding and preserving (in the Hebrew; the LXX obscures the hiding a bit); part of God preserving the psalmist is God hiding the psalmist (from enemies). This is especially the case if, as we find in 1 Enoch, the hiding and preserving are linked with the concept of revelation. In fact, pretty much anything heavenly is going to be, as a matter of course, a secret from humanity, one which has to be revealed (to the elect, in this case) if humanity is going to know about it. So I do still think that the 3-step template is present in this passage; that said, as I intimated before, I do not think it stands alone in ancient Judaic literature; I think it is part of a broader pattern.
Called off sick today, and I was feeling kind of crummy and couldn't sleep when I wrote my message at 2:00am, so bear with me.

In literary criticism, I understand that there is a difference between what a writer meant, and how each reader (or groups of readers) interprets it. So, wherever early Christians got exposed to the "son of man" doctrine (which they then adapted to Jesus Christ), they combined it with other elements.

Logically, two texts with common themes can directly borrow from a source (A > B, or A < B), or they can both have drawn from some common tradition (C > A & B). The theme of a "Son of man" as a cosmic judge of men on the day of final judgment may lie behind both the Parables (where it is applied to Enoch) and the Christian Gospels portrayal of Jesus (where he is a divine redeemer who becomes a man to effect that redemption).

I do not think that the Parables directly influenced the NT Gospels because we'd expect some of its other unique vocabulary to come through as well (particularly "Lord of Spirits"), but we do not. There is far more evidence that early Christians reverenced other Enoch literature besides the Parables, than the Parables themselves. That means they seem to have evolved independently from one another.

If the backdrop is the Roman-Parthian border wars, the Parables may have come into existence from the 1st century BCE to end of the 6th century CE. That one document was composed before another can be an entirely irrelevant issue, as not every development of a theme directly influences other developments of that same theme. The oppressed authors of the Parables seek vindication from a figure from their own traditions, not from the Christian tradition where the vindicator is Christ, and Christians sought vindication from their own traditions, not one in which Enoch is the vindicator.

How the Parables got to Ethiopia (before being combined with the other Enoch books as we have it) is the real mystery. Also, how it managed to get incorporated without significant, if any, Christian interpolations, such as happened to the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs, Martyrdom of Isaiah, etc., is another mystery. However, this preservation of Judean texts into Ethiopic, relatively un-interpolated, also happened with Jubilees. If its is a good read and can be interpreted to the readers taste without modification, perhaps there is no inherent need to interpolate Christian theology into it.

But back to the theme of "hidden" entities, if Enoch was commonly believed to have been "translated" to be with God in heaven, then he is no longer visible to men on earth. He is "hidden" in the sense that other human beings could no longer see him. But like all men, his legacy remains, which included the belief that Enoch left behind books describing what he saw while in heaven to pass on the Watcher's petition for leniency. So, his books can "reveal" that he is actually now present in heaven, and "plant" the concept of righteous behavior (behavior without duplicity or double standards).

The concept of receiving heavenly books to disseminate comes, in the parables, at 39:2
"And in those days Enoch received books of zeal and wrath, and books of disquiet and expulsion."
In the other Enoch books, this concept occurs in 82:1
"And now, my son Methuselah, all these things I am recounting to thee and writing down for thee, and I have revealed to thee everything, and given thee books concerning all these: so preserve, my son Methuselah, the books from thy father's hand, and (see) that thou deliver them to the generations of the world."
Also 93:1
"And after that Enoch both gave and began to recount from the books. And Enoch said: Concerning the children of righteousness and concerning the elect of the world, And concerning the plant of uprightness, I will speak these things, Yea, I Enoch will declare (them) unto you, my sons: According to that which appeared to me in the heavenly vision, And which I have known through the word of the holy angels, And. have learnt from the heavenly tablets."
Also 103:2
Mighty One in dominion, and by His greatness I swear to you. I know a mystery And have read the heavenly tablets, And have seen the holy books, And have found written therein and inscribed regarding them
Also 104:12-13
Then, I know another mystery, that books will be given to the righteous and the wise to become a cause of joy and uprightness and much wisdom. And to them shall the books be given, and they shall believe in them and rejoice over them, and then shall all the righteous who have learnt therefrom all the paths of uprightness be recompensed.'
Finally (thank goodness) 108:10
And all the blessings destined for them I have recounted in the books. And He hath assigned them their recompense, because they have been found to be such as loved heaven more than their life in the world, and though they were trodden under foot of wicked men, and experienced abuse and reviling from them and were put to shame, yet they blessed Me.
The authors of the parables were acquainted with the other Enoch books, and largely followed its structure, even to having its own Noah apocalypse(s) to splice in.

The Parables just added the concept that his presence in heaven was to "preserve" him in order to act as judge of evil men in the last day. It is rather the translators (particularly Laurence, but also Charles who amended "you are that son of man" to "he is the son of man" because he felt that the analogy to Christ was too great) who felt he should be interpreted as a "hidden" figure to be revealed in the last day, similar to Jesus Christ at his "second" coming.

DCH

Edit 7/20/15 4:17pm: Added a few more details about the books Enoch was thought to have handed on to righteous men.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote:It occurs to me that the curious phrase of Galatians, ' before whose eyes Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified ' , could be seen as a reference by way of contrast.

1 Corinthians and the whole 'we preach Christ crucified' thing also works better when his execution isn't public knowledge.
For convenience....

1 Corinthians 1.11-24 NASB:

11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

2 Corinthians 11.3-4 NASB:

3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Galatians 1.6-9 NASB:

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Galatians 3.1 NASB:

1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

Open questions: Is Paul worried about gospels that are preaching a noncrucified Christ? Or is he worried about gospels that are misinterpreting a crucified Christ? If the former, why does he spend virtually all his time (in Galatians, for example) decrying gentile circumcision rather than more directly attacking the opposing storyline? If the latter, what does it mean, then (in some way that does not blunt the sharpness of the accusation), to preach another Jesus? What are the merits of each case?

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
robert j
Posts: 1009
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by robert j »

Ben C. Smith wrote:Open questions: Is Paul worried about gospels that are preaching a noncrucified Christ? Or is he worried about gospels that are misinterpreting a crucified Christ? If the former, why does he spend virtually all his time (in Galatians, for example) decrying gentile circumcision rather than more directly attacking the opposing storyline? If the latter, what does it mean, then (in some way that does not blunt the sharpness of the accusation), to preach another Jesus? What are the merits of each case?
Paul’s rhetoric is all about maintaining his authority (and hence his potential for compensation). Paul’s authority was dependent upon his congregations accepting the story of his Christ spirit that he had told them during his evangelizing visit. That story, and all the associated implications that Paul heaped upon it, constituted “the gospel”.

There is no convincing evidence in the letter to the Galatians that the troublemakers were from outside the local area, or that they were even believers in the Christ. The internal evidence is entirely consistent with a local problem --- with Jewish acquaintances of Paul’s congregation. Jewish acquaintances that apparently had no problem with Paul’s story of a salvific figure found in the scriptures by means of allegorical Midrash, but they objected to the claims that Paul’s congregation could be full participants with the people of Israel without the benefit of circumcision.

Many in Paul's Galatian congregation were well-versed in the Jewish scriptures, otherwise Paul's complex arguments from the scriptures in chapters 3 and 4 of his letter would be of little meaning to his group. Perhaps before Paul came along, some within his group were Gentile “God-fearers” participating in some Jewish activities. What is clear, is that being part of the “Israel of God” was of utmost importance to Paul's Galatian congregation.

Paul’s letters to the Corinthians can give the impression that this group constituted what we might call a congregation of the Christ. However, IMO, Paul’s authority with this group was tenuous and fleeting --- off-and-on --- and in the end apparently lost.

Many of the proud, rambunctious, and sophisticated Corinthians were also fickle. Apparently not unlike some New-Agers of today --- attracted to each novel and intriguing spiritual promise that comes along. Paul’s Christ spirit caught their fancy --- at least for a while.
Ben C. Smith wrote:1 Corinthians 1.11-24 NASB:
11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” ...

I’ve presented my opinion on this situation in another thread, but since it also addressed another issue, I’ll cut-and-paste the pertinent portion with some minor editing ----

This passage has spawned a wide variety of interpretations. Many, to my mind, are too convoluted. Paul devotes many verses to address the perceived competition from his co-worker Apollos, and I’ll elaborate on that below. But one can only guess about the references to Cephas and the Christ, as neither had visited the congregation. So, on those two, I’ll just provide plausible scenarios.

Perhaps some of the Corinthians found, in the primacy of the spiritual awakening of Cephas, their preferred human role-model in the Christ spirit. According to Paul's retelling of tradition that he had previously told the Corinthians, Cephas was the first human to experience knowledge of the heavenly Christ spirit. (1 Cor. 15, verses 1, 3 and 5). That would make Cephas a founding figure --- a revered and prominent position in most spiritual movements.

Paul's mention of "I'm of Christ" seems to present a difficult challenge to explain, and generates a wide range of interpretations. After all, weren't they all with Christ? I don’t think the phrase needs to create a problem. Some among the fractious and sophisticated Corinthians were already "full", as Paul accused them;

"Already you are full, already you were enriched, apart from us you reigned. I wish you did reign, that we might also reign with you." (1 Cor. 4:8).

Certainly some among the Corinthians might have said, "Why do we need Apollos, or Cephas, or even Paul? We don't need any of them. We need nothing more than the spirit of god through Christ --- I'm with Christ." (… apostles, we don’t need no stinkin’ apostles)

And now back to Apollos, who was apparently no longer in Corinth by this time. (1 Cor. 16:12). Paul devoted all of chapter 3 to address the perceived threat from Apollos.

After Paul first evangelized the Corinthian congregation, Apollos apparently remained behind, as a coworker,

"So, who is Apollos? And who is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, and to each as the Lord gave. I planted and Apollos watered … he that plants and he that waters are one … for we are God's fellow-workers … " (1 Cor. 3:5-9).

Some of the Corinthians really must have liked this Apollos, for the jealous and assertive Paul to claim only a place of equality for himself. Paul needed to bring Apollos down a few notches, to plant some seeds of doubt, but he had to tread carefully,

“According to the grace of God having been given to me, as a wise master-builder, I have laid the foundation, but another is building upon it. But let every man take heed how he builds ...” (1 Corinthians 3:10).

Directly following this passage, Paul cast doubts on the quality of the building Apollos constructed on his foundation, saying whether built of precious metals or stones or wood or hay or straw --- in fire the quality of each one's work will be revealed. (1 Cor. 3:12-15).

Continuing to cast doubts on the work of Apollos,

"Don't you know that you are the temple of God and the spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, as are you." (1 Cor. 3:16-17).

Except for another brief and related mention in chapter 4, and a brief mention in chapter 16 indicating that Apollos was in Ephesus at the time, we hear no more about Apollos from Paul.

In the end, it's just Paul working hard to maintain his authority and his leadership --- his path to god through his Christ.


As an example, the Corinthians seemed to have trouble accepting Paul’s concept of the resurrection of the dead --- for Paul, a concept central to “the gospel”. See this OP ---
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1383

Paul seems to have finally lost most of the Corinthians after they had been visited by Jewish missionaries that apparently presented dazzling mystical exegeses on Moses. See this OP (part 2) ---
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=785

IMO, the Corinthian correspondence becomes easier to understand if the work of the final compiler is sorted out and the multiple letters are rearranged into a set closer to their original form by using the various subplots to restore the chronological sequence. See this OP (parts one and two) ---
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=829
Last edited by robert j on Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2843
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: An inventory of references to the mystery of Christ.

Post by andrewcriddle »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:It occurs to me that the curious phrase of Galatians, ' before whose eyes Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified ' , could be seen as a reference by way of contrast.

1 Corinthians and the whole 'we preach Christ crucified' thing also works better when his execution isn't public knowledge.
For convenience....

1 Corinthians 1.11-24 NASB:

11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

2 Corinthians 11.3-4 NASB:

3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Galatians 1.6-9 NASB:

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Galatians 3.1 NASB:

1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

Open questions: Is Paul worried about gospels that are preaching a noncrucified Christ? Or is he worried about gospels that are misinterpreting a crucified Christ? If the former, why does he spend virtually all his time (in Galatians, for example) decrying gentile circumcision rather than more directly attacking the opposing storyline? If the latter, what does it mean, then (in some way that does not blunt the sharpness of the accusation), to preach another Jesus? What are the merits of each case?

Ben.
IMO the 'other gospel' involved presenting Jesus as being put to death for his loyalty to Torah, with this faithfulness to Torah being vindicated by God raising him from the dead.

Andrew Criddle
Post Reply