My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

[GakuseiDon]

OP:My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

GakuseiDon has posted a review. He likes to try to counter Carrier, often by misrepresenting him.

I think we've finished on the Euhemerism side. Assuming I've misrepresented Carrier there, it would be helpful if you can point out where else I've misrepresented Carrier in my review. Can you quote me, and add where you see I've misrepresented him please? I'll link to your post in my review if your point seems reasonable.

[MrMacSon]

I can see the need for the Christian patristic writers to negate ancient Greek gods.

Orphic Hymn 15 to Zeus (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns c 3rd BC to 2nd AD/CE) -

"O Zeus, much-honoured, Zeus supremely great, to thee our holy rites we consecrate, our prayers and expiations, king divine, for all things to produce with ease through mind is thine. Hence mother earth (gaia) and mountains swelling high proceed from thee, the deep and all within the sky. Kronion king, descending from above, magnanimous, commanding, sceptred Zeus; all-parent, principle and end of all, whose power almighty shakes this earthly ball; even nature trembles at thy mighty nod, loud-sounding, armed with lightning, thundering god. Source of abundance, purifying king, O various-formed, from whom all natures spring; propitious hear my prayer, give blameless health, with peace divine, and necessary wealth."

http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Zeus.html

Also see The Orphic Hymns JHU Press, 2013.

• "At the very beginnings of the Archaic Age, the great singer Orpheus taught a new religion that centered around the immortality of the human soul and its journey after death on its way to finding a permanent home. He felt that achieving purity by avoiding meat and refraining from committing harm further promoted the pursuit of a peaceful life. Elements of the worship of Dionysus, such as shape-shifting and ritualistic ecstasy, were fused with Orphic beliefs to produce a powerful and illuminating new religion that found expression in the mystery cults. Practitioners of this new religion composed a great body of poetry, much of which is translated in The Orphic Hymns.
  
  "The hymns presented in this book were anonymously composed somewhere in Asia Minor, most likely in the middle of the third century AD. At this turbulent time, the Hellenic past was fighting for its survival, while the new Christian faith was spreading everywhere. The Orphic Hymns thus reflect a pious spirituality in the form of traditional literary conventions. The hymns themselves are devoted to specific divinities as well as to cosmic elements. Prefaced with offerings, strings of epithets invoke the various attributes of the divinity and prayers ask for peace and health to the initiate. Coauthors Apostolos N. Athanassakis and Benjamin M. Wolkow have produced an accurate and elegant translation accompanied by rich commentary."
  
  https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ia ... navlinks_s

[MrMacSon]

... it would be helpful if you can point out where else I've misrepresented Carrier in my review. Can you quote me, and add where you see I've misrepresented him please? I'll link to your post in my review if your point seems reasonable.

It would be helpful if you would represent euhemerization and euhemerism accurately eg. http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 415#p39415

I have made various reasonable points in various posts in this thread.

[iskander]

I can see the need for the Christian patristic writers to negate ancient Greek gods.

Orphic Hymn 15 to Zeus (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns c 3rd BC to 2nd AD/CE) -

"O Zeus, much-honoured, Zeus supremely great, to thee our holy rites we consecrate, our prayers and expiations, king divine, for all things to produce with ease through mind is thine. Hence mother earth (gaia) and mountains swelling high proceed from thee, the deep and all within the sky. Kronion king, descending from above, magnanimous, commanding, sceptred Zeus; all-parent, principle and end of all, whose power almighty shakes this earthly ball; even nature trembles at thy mighty nod, loud-sounding, armed with lightning, thundering god. Source of abundance, purifying king, O various-formed, from whom all natures spring; propitious hear my prayer, give blameless health, with peace divine, and necessary wealth."

http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Zeus.html

Also see The Orphic Hymns JHU Press, 2013.

• "At the very beginnings of the Archaic Age, the great singer Orpheus taught a new religion that centered around the immortality of the human soul and its journey after death on its way to finding a permanent home. He felt that achieving purity by avoiding meat and refraining from committing harm further promoted the pursuit of a peaceful life. Elements of the worship of Dionysus, such as shape-shifting and ritualistic ecstasy, were fused with Orphic beliefs to produce a powerful and illuminating new religion that found expression in the mystery cults. Practitioners of this new religion composed a great body of poetry, much of which is translated in The Orphic Hymns.
  
  "The hymns presented in this book were anonymously composed somewhere in Asia Minor, most likely in the middle of the third century AD. At this turbulent time, the Hellenic past was fighting for its survival, while the new Christian faith was spreading everywhere. The Orphic Hymns thus reflect a pious spirituality in the form of traditional literary conventions. The hymns themselves are devoted to specific divinities as well as to cosmic elements. Prefaced with offerings, strings of epithets invoke the various attributes of the divinity and prayers ask for peace and health to the initiate. Coauthors Apostolos N. Athanassakis and Benjamin M. Wolkow have produced an accurate and elegant translation accompanied by rich commentary."
  
  https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ia ... navlinks_s

What can you see?. It is well known that Christians did not invent religion.

[GakuseiDon]

... it would be helpful if you can point out where else I've misrepresented Carrier in my review. Can you quote me, and add where you see I've misrepresented him please? I'll link to your post in my review if your point seems reasonable.

It would be helpful if you would represent euhemerization and euhemerism accurately eg. http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 415#p39415

Those quotes you provide IS how I represent euhemerism. I actually thought you were providing them to support me rather than Carrier. What is the difference in how I present Euhemerism and what those quotes you provided say?

Here are the references you quoted in your post and which I agree with:

The Hellenistic writer Euhemerus apparently proposed a theory that Zeus had actually been a great king of Crete and that posthumously his glory had slowly turned him into a deity. The works of Euhemerus himself have not survived, but Christian patristic writers took up the suggestion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Zeus_Velchanos

Euhemerism was fashionable among the Church Fathers (the religious teachers of the early church) as an 'account' of paganism.
ie. Euhemerus had [supposedly] 'shown' the Greek and Roman 'gods' were merely deified humans.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Euhemerism

Euhemerism

Euhemerus (Greek mythographer)
author of a utopian work that was popular in the ancient world; his name was given to the theory [doctrine] that gods are great men worshipped after their death (i.e., Euhemerism). His most important work was Hiera Anagraphe (probably early 3rd century BC; 'The Sacred Inscription'), which was translated into Latin by the poet Ennius (239–169 BC).
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Euhemerism

In Euhemerus’s first-person narrative, he is sent by the Macedonian king Cassander (305–297 bc) on an imaginary voyage to the Indian Ocean, where he eventually lands on an island he calls Panchaea. The island is full of marvels, and it has a clear three-class structure: priests and craftsmen, farmers, and soldiers and shepherds. On Panchaea the poet discovers in a temple of Zeus the sacred inscription that gives the book its name. The inscription 'explains' that Zeus and his ancestors Uranus (Heaven) and the Titan Cronus, as well as the other gods, were mortals who were worshipped because of their accomplishments or merits. Euhemerus may have been simply applying to all the gods what was commonly believed to be true of some—e.g., Dionysus and Heracles. He may also have been influenced by Hellenistic ruler cults, which became popular as a result of the success of Alexander the Great.
http://www.britannica.com/biography/Euh ... thographer

... It is generally assumed that the island of Panchea, as well as the rest of what Euhemerus accounts, is more or less fiction of his. Yet, this approach to mythology, seeing behind it some distant historical facts, did not therefore lose their credibility. Myths, also those involving the gods, even the very genesis of them as well as the whole world, tend to be mingled also with the affairs of men. In this (Homer is certainly a good example) having gods and men interact to the extent that they become difficult to tell apart at all.

To the Christian thinkers, the ideas of Euhemerus had that advantage, too; of doing away with the heathen ingredient in the Greek myths, without having to do away with the myths altogether. The stories of old could be nourished and retold, with an interpretation doing pretty much the reverse of what Euhemerus said once had taken place, so that men, [supposedly] 'having been turned into gods', could be 'turned back' into men.
http://www.stenudd.com/greekphilosophers/euhemerus.htm

the mythographer Euhemerus, suggested that the gods were originally human, a view known as Euhemerism.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Euhemerism

Early Christian writers, such as Lactantius, used the principles of Euhemerus to assert that,
because the ancient gods were [supposedly] originally human, they were necessarily inferior to the Christian god.
http://www.britannica.com/biography/Euh ... thographer

Euhemerism was fashionable among the Church Fathers (the religious teachers of the early church) as an account of paganism.
ie. Euhemerus had [supposedly] 'shown' the Greek and Roman 'gods' were merely deified humans.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Euhemerism

All seems good to me. How is that different to what I am arguing? And how does that match Carrier's usage that Euhemerism includes "Ahistorical deities, turned into historical ascended godmen"? Which of the quotes above -- that you yourself provided -- support such a usage?

[MrMacSon]

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[MrMacSon]

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[MrMacSon]

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GakuselessDon,The full post is this -

As the father of the gods, Zeus ascertained that each deity perform their individual duty, punished their misdeeds, settled their disputes, and acted towards them on all occasions as their all-knowing counsellor and mighty friend.

As the father of men, he took a paternal interest in the actions and well-being of mortals. He watched over them with tender solicitude, rewarding truth, charity, and fairness, while severely punishing perjury and cruelty. Even the poorest and most forlorn wanderer could find a powerful advocate in Zeus, for he, as a wise and merciful paternal figure, demanded that the wealthy inhabitants of the earth be attentive to the needs of their less fortunate fellow citizens.

http://www.greekmythology.com/Olympians/Zeus/zeus.html

See a tabulated list of Zeus's 'divine-' and 'non-divine-' "children" here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Cons ... d_children

Although etymology indicates that Zeus was originally a sky god, many Greek cities honored a local Zeus who lived underground. Athenians and Sicilians honored Zeus Meilichios ("kindly" or "honeyed") while other cities had Zeus Chthonios ("earthy"), Zeus Katachthonios ("under-the-earth") and Zeus Plousios ("wealth-bringing"). These deities might be represented as snakes or in human form in visual art; or, for emphasis, as both together in one image.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Addi ... ts_of_Zeus

The Hellenistic writer Euhemerus apparently proposed a theory that Zeus had actually been a great king of Crete and that posthumously his glory had slowly turned him into a deity. The works of Euhemerus himself have not survived, but Christian patristic writers took up the suggestion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Zeus_Velchanos

• Euhemerism was fashionable among the Church Fathers (the religious teachers of the early church) as an 'account' of paganism.
  

  • [ie. Euhemerus had [supposedly] 'shown' the Greek and Roman 'gods' were merely deified humans.[

  http://www.britannica.com/topic/Euhemerism

Euhemerism

Euhemerus (Greek mythographer)
author of a utopian work that was popular in the ancient world; his name was given to the theory [doctrine] that gods are great men worshipped after their death (i.e., Euhemerism). His most important work was Hiera Anagraphe (probably early 3rd century BC; 'The Sacred Inscription'), which was translated into Latin by the poet Ennius (239–169 BC).

http://www.britannica.com/topic/Euhemerism

In Euhemerus’s first-person narrative, he is sent by the Macedonian king Cassander (305–297 bc) on an imaginary voyage to the Indian Ocean, where he eventually lands on an island he calls Panchaea. The island is full of marvels, and it has a clear three-class structure: priests and craftsmen, farmers, and soldiers and shepherds. On Panchaea the poet discovers in a temple of Zeus the sacred inscription that gives the book its name. The inscription 'explains' that Zeus and his ancestors Uranus (Heaven) and the Titan Cronus, as well as the other gods, were mortals who were worshipped because of their accomplishments or merits. Euhemerus may have been simply applying to all the gods what was commonly believed to be true of some—e.g., Dionysus and Heracles. He may also have been influenced by Hellenistic ruler cults, which became popular as a result of the success of Alexander the Great.

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Euh ... thographer

... It is generally assumed that the island of Panchea, as well as the rest of what Euhemerus accounts, is more or less fiction of his. Yet, this approach to mythology, seeing behind it some distant historical facts, did not therefore lose their credibility. Myths, also those involving the gods, even the very genesis of them as well as the whole world, tend to be mingled also with the affairs of men. In this (Homer is certainly a good example) having gods and men interact to the extent that they become difficult to tell apart at all.

To the Christian thinkers, the ideas of Euhemerus had that advantage, too; of doing away with the heathen ingredient in the Greek myths, without having to do away with the myths altogether. The stories of old could be nourished and retold, with an interpretation doing pretty much the reverse of what Euhemerus said once had taken place, so that men, [supposedly] 'having been turned into gods', could be 'turned back' into men.

http://www.stenudd.com/greekphilosophers/euhemerus.htm

the mythographer Euhemerus, suggested that the gods were originally human, a view known as Euhemerism.

http://www.britannica.com/topic/Euhemerism

Early Christian writers, such as Lactantius, used the principles of Euhemerus to assert that,

• because the ancient gods were [supposedly] originally human, they were necessarily inferior to the Christian god.

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Euh ... thographer

• Euhemerism was fashionable among the Church Fathers (the religious teachers of the early church) as an account of paganism.
  

  • [ie. Euhemerus had [supposedly] 'shown' the Greek and Roman 'gods' were merely deified humans.]

  http://www.britannica.com/topic/Euhemerism

[/list]

Those sequential posts, that took me quite a while to put together to honestly seek to clarify what really happened, outline how the story went from

• Zeus the god ... to ... Zeus the man ... but still deified

and

• How
  • the Christians used Euhemerus's narration
    
    to misrepresent non-Christian gods as mere men who had been deified.

nb. The Christians provided false-witness; ---- as you do.


Your dishonesty and disrespect for discerning truth is infuriating.

.

[GakuseiDon]

I see. Okay, let's leave it at that then. Thanks MrMacSon.

[iskander]

Was Jesus a historic "schizotypal"?
page 15
Re: Is the Rejection of Jewish Origin for Xristianity = Lazi
by Diogenes the Cynic » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:18 pm

Carrier does not reject a Jewish origin for Christianity and explicitly says that it started as a Jewish mystic (I say mystic although he uses the more blunt term, "schizotypal") sect in the vein of Qumranites or Essenes or that naked Banias nutjob that Josephus talked about training with - people who saw themselves as exemplars of the Jewish prophetic tradition (many significant historicist scholars say that Jesus himself presented in this tradition, not as a Messiah) and/or people who thought they were able to discern secret, secondary messages in Scripture (both the Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament are full of this). Carrier thinks it was definitely a hardcore Jewish origin at it's most inceptional level - fanatically Jewish even - but that it became fused with Mystery Cult traditions once it got outside of Palestine and into the Empire. Carrier points out that such Mystery Cult fusions were commonplace with other religions. He names specific examples, but I don't remember them or feel digging up the Kindle right now, but it's not either/or with Christian origins. It's Jewish chocolate in Pagan peanut butter. The original Palestinian Jewish cult (whether there was an HJ at the center of it or not) was not Christianity. Christianity is what happened to the cult after it went into the Empire and after the original Palestinian cult disappeared after the First Jewish Revolt and the destruction Jerusalem.