the Flying Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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the Flying Jesus

Post by MrMacSon »

There is all this information out there (i.e. Baarda's Flying Jesus from the Diatessaron etc) but it just sits there because it doesn't fit into our traditional assumptions. http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 117#p35117
I think that the place to start is here http://www.jstor.org/stable/1584033 and then putting together the pieces of what Marcionism is/was and related religious forms in the near East ....

... let me justify the significance of Baarda's article and work in general in a sentence or two:
Jesus was portrayed as descending from heaven and flying away from (or passing through) a hostile Jewish crowd who plunge to their death owing to their aggressive behavior against Jesus in two separate and hostile traditions in the middle of the second century
How could this possibly have developed from a minimally historical Jesus?

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 256#p38256
One tradition has Jesus fly above the Jews, the other has the crowd pass through Jesus. The end result is the same - they all die - as they plunge over the precipice. The independent development of this story in two hostile communities is not remotely possible IMO. The story wasn't added but rather Luke 'tamed' it's significance.

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 475#p36475
[Carrier's] borrowings from Doherty are unfortunate ... I have brought up the correct understanding - i.e. the flying Jesus discussion -

... earlier traditions did indeed hold Jesus to have 'spiritual flesh' which capable of flying and passing through people.

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 556#p38556
previously, in the same post -
... read Tertullian's De Carne Christi paying special attention to get a sense of the argument(s) the Latin writer is refuting. There is a palpable sense that the heretics (one group of heretics?) hold that Jesus had a 'spiritual flesh' of some sort. The claim that the heretics believed Jesus to be a 'phantom', which begins with Celsus, is entirely polemic in nature. Closest to the truth, it seems, is what appears in the Acts of John. Jesus had flesh which could 'change shape.' In the narrative where the crowd attempts to push Jesus over the cliff for instance, there is a sense that the crowd 'has him' for a moment, then he 'changes shape' or substance - at once 'passing through' (or better yet the crowd pass through him or even flying above them in some traditions. The flying Jesus is a perfect example of the spiritual flesh's ability to change shape. At once it is 'earth-like' (i.e. it stays where it 'belongs' according to Aristotle's dictum on the ground but then assumes 'air like' qualities and rises.
I also suspect that the idea that the 'Father' became manifest in individual men in the post-resurrection period (why Christian priests are called 'fathers' and the Pope is 'grandfather') has something to do with this 'flying Chrestos' figure.

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 542#p37542
Clive
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Re: the Flying Jesus

Post by Clive »

Flying fish? 153? Jonah?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Secret Alias
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Re: the Flying Jesus

Post by Secret Alias »

and the fact that this concept of the flying Jesus is also intertwined with the 'escaping Jesus' (i.e. the one who could escape from 'the authorities' cf. the reconstruction of Baarda) it cannot be doubt - no it is fucking impossible to accept - that this Jesus who manages to evade all the authorities (not just here in the synagogue by a cliff but also at the end of the gospel via substitution) is NOT CONNECTED WITH THE PARALLEL PHENOMENON REPORTED AS EARLY AS IRENAEUS THAT THE ADHERENTS OF A HERETICAL GOSPEL OF MARK (= MARCUS) BELIEVED THAT THEY TOO COULD ESCAPE DETECTION AND CAPTURE BY THE AUTHORITIES.
For they affirm, that because of the "Redemption" (apolutrosis) it has come to pass that they can neither be apprehended, nor even seen by the judge. But even if he should happen to lay hold upon them, then they might simply repeat these words, while standing in his presence along with the "Redemption:" "O thou, who sittest beside God, and the mystical, eternal Sige, thou through whom the angels (mightiness), who continually behold the face of the Father, having thee as their guide and introducer, do derive their forms from above, which she in the greatness of her daring inspiring with mind on account of the goodness of the Propator, produced us as their images, having her mind then intent upon the things above, as in a dream,--behold, the judge is at hand, and the crier orders me to make my defence. But do thou, as being acquainted with the affairs of both, present the cause of both of us to the judge, inasmuch as it is in reality but one cause." Now, as soon as the Mother hears these words, she puts the Homeric helmet of Pluto upon them, so that they may invisibly escape the judge. And then she immediately catches them up, conducts them into the bridal chamber, and hands them over to their consorts. (Adv Haer 1.13.4)
I sometimes wonder if 'researchers' actually try to make sense of this material. Notice that the context here are 'females' who are baptized and say prayers which implore a second power to 'redeem' them (as slaves) from the ruler of the world (or rulers of the world). The female power rescues them in the baptismal 'bridal chamber.' Compare a little later when it says:
Others still there are who continue to redeem persons even up to the moment of death, by placing on their heads oil and water, or the pre-mentioned ointment with water, using at the same time the above-named invocations, that the persons referred to may become incapable of being seized or seen by the principalities and powers, and that their inner man may ascend on high in an invisible manner, as if their body were left among created things in this world, while their soul is sent forward to the Demiurge. And they instruct them, on their reaching the principalities and powers, to make use of these words: "I am a son from the Father--the Father who had a pre-existence, and a son in Him who is pre-existent. I have come to behold all things, both those which belong to myself and others, although, strictly speaking, they do not belong to others, but to Achamoth, who is female in nature, and made these things for herself. For I derive being from Him who is pre-existent, and I come again to my own place whence I went forth." And they affirm that, by saying these things, he escapes from the powers. He then advances to the companions of the Demiurge, and thus addresses them:--"I am a vessel more precious than the female who formed you. If your mother is ignorant of her own descent, I know myself, and am aware whence I am, and I call upon the incorruptible Sophia, who is in the Father, and is the mother of your mother, who has no father, nor any male consort; but a female springing from a female formed you, while ignorant of her own mother, and imagining that she alone existed; but I call upon her mother." And they declare, that when the companions of the Demiurge hear these words, they are greatly agitated, and upbraid their origin and the race of their mother. But he goes into his own place, having thrown [off] his chain, that is, his animal nature. These, then, are the particulars which have reached us respecting "redemption."
While this doesn't explicitly make mention of Jesus escaping from the authorities once we know that the oldest versions of the 'Diatessaron' (or the gospel of Justin, Tatian and Marcion) had a very similar demonstration on the part of Jesus vs the authorities it becomes impossible not to see the two as interconnected.

Indeed the fact that Irenaeus demonstrates that the community of Mark here maintained their prayers in Hebrew or Aramaic the most crucial bit of information is revealed a little earlier:
They go on to state that, when the mother Achamoth had passed through all sorts of passion, and had with difficulty escaped from them (the authorities), she turned herself to supplicate the light which had forsaken her, that is, Christ. (Adv Haer 1.4.5)
Clearly IMO 'passion' here is imperfectly translated into Greek. The original term was yetser which properly mean 'form.' In other words, the Mother is understood to have taken many forms (a well known gnostic theme). Clearly also the 'brides' referenced by Irenaeus are not actual 'women' of the flesh but brides of Christ who imitated his example in the gospel.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: the Flying Jesus

Post by Secret Alias »

So Jesus hasn't escaped the authorities until he came down to earth in the year of the gospel. His example of changing and taking different forms is connected with 'the Mother' (Mary Magdala?) who similarly is connected in early Christianity with passion. But as I have noted many times over many years here 'the Passion' is really to be understood as Jesus's 'transformation' and moreover the Islamic pseudepigraphal remembrance that Jesus became 'other people' i.e. Judas is a preservation of something very ancient. Notice that Mary and Judas are understood to be connected with Jesus's 'passion' in Irenaeus Book two also
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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