The Development of Crucifixion in the Pauline Epistles

[JoeWallack]

The Ballad of John and Luko

Saving up all your money for a thunderous day,
Giving all your clothes to charity.
Last night Mary said,
Oh boychick when you're dead.
You don't take nothin with you but your soul,
Think!

JW:
This Thread is motioned by the observation that we have no evidence that anyone other than Gospel characters were crucified in Jesus' supposed time and place. The motion is seconded by the observation that we have no quality witness evidence that anyone who knew Jesus claimed he was crucified.

Perhaps more amazing than the supposed resurrection is that Jesus' supposed crucifixion is commonly claimed as a historical fact:

Crucifixion of Jesus

Jesus' crucifixion is described in the four canonical gospels, referred to in the New Testament Epistles, attested to by other ancient sources, and is established as a historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources,[1] though there is no consensus on the precise details of what exactly occurred.[2][3][4][not in citation given][5]

even though in an area with well established criteria to determine fact, the US Court System, the supposed evidence used to claim the crucifixion as historical fact not only would not be sufficient to prove the crucifixion but would not even be permitted as evidence.

While not claiming any supernatural ability here, I foresee that there are those here (not naming names, that's a Secret) who would use the above as a strawman, posturing that I claim/think I'm proving that Jesus was not crucified. Just sayin that there is reason to doubt.

In my companion of the lord Thread:

Was Paul the First to Assert that Jesus was Crucified?

I've indicated and than some that based on extant, Paul is the first to assert that Jesus was crucified. Since this has now been established as a historical fact I think it would be Revealing to look at the chronology of the crucifixion assertion within the Pauline Epistles.

The Chronology:

Dating of Pauline Epistles

Seven letters (with consensus dates)[5] considered genuine by most scholars:

First Thessalonians (ca. 50 AD)

Galatians (ca. 53 AD)

First Corinthians (ca. 53–54 AD)

Philippians (ca. 55 AD)

Philemon (ca. 55 AD)

Second Corinthians (ca. 55–56 AD)

Romans (ca. 57 AD)

JW:
As noted in my other Thread, the likely first Epistle of Paul, First Thessalonians (ca. 50 AD), has no mention of crucifixion which presumably would be consistent with the time and setting of writing, no crucifixions in general in Israel at that time (but the natives were getting restless). This Epistle is all the Thessalonians had to read. There is no quality evidence that any other part of the Christian Bible existed at the time or that there was any existing Gospel narrative the Thessalonians would have been familiar with. Paul was like Rip Torn Curtain, First Thessalonians was his Acts, he didn't come dancing.

First Thessalonians' message is simple by Christian standards which is consistent with it being earlier. Have patient faith that Jesus will return. Three years later, no Jesus in sight, time for a new Epistle with an updated message. Galatians is on the slab. What is the development of crucifixion in the likely next Epistle here, after First Thessalonians which has no mention of it?



Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

ErrancyWiki

[maryhelena]

Keeping in mind this article from Lena Einhorn.....

• Josephus makes no note of crucifixions of Jews between 4 B.C.E. and 46
  C.E., except in Testimonium Flavianum. He mentions them, however, under Varus (4 B.C.E.),
  Tiberius Alexander (46 to 48 C.E.), Cumanus (48 to 52 C.E.), Felix (52 to ca. 59 C.E.), and
  Florus (64 to 66 C.E.), as well as during the Jewish War (66 to 73 C.E.).18
  
  http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/upload ... .11.25.pdf

Yes, Lena Einhorn suggests a time-shift to post 46 c.e. - but once a time-shift is entertained - then a backwards rather than a forward time-shift is also on the table....

[andrewcriddle]

JW:
This Thread is motioned by the observation that we have no evidence that anyone other than Gospel characters were crucified in Jesus' supposed time and place. The motion is seconded by the observation that we have no quality witness evidence that anyone who knew Jesus claimed he was crucified.

Perhaps more amazing than the supposed resurrection is that Jesus' supposed crucifixion is commonly claimed as a historical fact:

Philo in Embassy to Gaius Refers to

his [Pilate's] corruption, and his acts of insolence, and his rapine, and his habit of insulting people, and his cruelty, and his continual murders of people untried and uncondemned, and his never ending, and gratuitous, and most grievous inhumanity

This does not explicitly mention crucifixion but it may well be implied.

Andrew Criddle

[JoeWallack]

Keeping in mind this article from Lena Einhorn.....

• Josephus makes no note of crucifixions of Jews between 4 B.C.E. and 46
  C.E., except in Testimonium Flavianum. He mentions them, however, under Varus (4 B.C.E.),
  Tiberius Alexander (46 to 48 C.E.), Cumanus (48 to 52 C.E.), Felix (52 to ca. 59 C.E.), and
  Florus (64 to 66 C.E.), as well as during the Jewish War (66 to 73 C.E.).18
  
  http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/upload ... .11.25.pdf

Yes, Lena Einhorn suggests a time-shift to post 46 c.e. - but once a time-shift is entertained - then a backwards rather than a forward time-shift is also on the table....

JW:
Antiquities of the Jews - Book XX CHAPTER 5

2. Then came Tiberius Alexander as successor to Fadus; he was the son of Alexander the alabarch of Alexandria, which Alexander was a principal person among all his contemporaries, both for his family and wealth: he was also more eminent for his piety than this his son Alexander, for he did not continue in the religion of his country. Under these procurators that great famine happened in Judea, in which queen Helena bought corn in Egypt at a great expense, and distributed it to those that were in want, as I have related already. And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor. And now it was that Cumanus came as successor to Tiberius Alexander; as also that Herod, brother of Agrippa the great king, departed this life, in the eighth year of the reign of Claudius Caesar. He left behind him three sons; Aristobulus, whom he had by his first wife, with Bernicianus, and Hyrcanus, both whom he had by Bernice his brother's daughter. But Claudius Caesar bestowed his dominions on Agrippa, junior.

Procurators of Judea:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 16107.html

• Pontius Pilate 26–36
  
  Marcellus 36–37
  
  Marullus 37–41
  
  Cuspius Fadus 44–46
  
  Tiberius Julius Alexander 46–48
  
  Ventidius Cumanus 48–52
  
  Antonius Felix 52–60
  
  Porcius Festus 60–62
  
  Albinus 62–64
  
  Gessius Florus 64–66

So the first mention of crucifixions in Israel outside of the Gospel accounts in the first century are two c. 47. The reason Josephus gives is significant political opposition to Rome. Exactly what we would expect based on other sources (not including the Gospels). Interesting observations from the above:

• 1) Outside of the Gospel account, no evidence that Pilate c.26–36 was involved in any crucifixions. No evidence that there was any significant political opposition to Rome in Pilate's time that would have made crucifixion expected.
  
  2) Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"), discoverer of some of orthodox Christianity's most basic and important assertions, claims that a mature Jesus was crucified under Emperor Claudius, c. 41 to 54. As opposed to Pilate, this is a time period when there were crucifixions in Israel.
  
  3) The Jews mentioned above with "son" close by are James, and Joseph, and Judas, and Simon. The same as the supposed brothers of Jesus.

Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

ErrancyWiki

[maryhelena]

Not forgetting.....

• Under Tiberius all was quiet.
  
  Tacitus (Hist. 5.9)

[MrMacSon]

As well as noting the crucifixion dates, Einhorn, in that paper, notes transposition of various historical events in Josephus texts, where they are dated 44 to 58-60 AD, into the Gospel texts in a ~26-36 AD setting.

• http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/upload ... .11.25.pdf

[MrMacSon]

Not forgetting.....

• Under Tiberius all was quiet.
  
  Tacitus (Hist. 5.9)

Preceding that is

"Antony gave the throne to Herod, and Augustus, after his victory, increased his power. After Herod's death, a certain Simon32 assumed the name of king without waiting for Caesar's decision. He, however, was put to death by Quintilius Varus, governor of Syria; the Jews were repressed; and the kingdom was divided into three parts and given to Herod's sons.33 Under Tiberius all was quiet.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/5A*.html

[JoeWallack]

JW:
List of Procurators of Judea per Josephus for relevant time period:

• Pontius Pilate 26–36 [Jesus' supposed time. Not counting the TF for now/forever, no crucifixions reported]
  
  Marcellus 36–37 [no crucifixions reported]
  
  Marullus 37–41 [no crucifixions reported]
  
  Cuspius Fadus 44–46 [no crucifixions reported]
  
  Tiberius Julius Alexander 46–48
  

  2. Then came Tiberius Alexander as successor to Fadus; he was the son of Alexander the alabarch of Alexandria, which Alexander was a principal person among all his contemporaries, both for his family and wealth: he was also more eminent for his piety than this his son Alexander, for he did not continue in the religion of his country. Under these procurators that great famine happened in Judea, in which queen Helena bought corn in Egypt at a great expense, and distributed it to those that were in want, as I have related already. And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor. And now it was that Cumanus came as successor to Tiberius Alexander; as also that Herod, brother of Agrippa the great king, departed this life, in the eighth year of the reign of Claudius Caesar. He left behind him three sons; Aristobulus, whom he had by his first wife, with Bernicianus, and Hyrcanus, both whom he had by Bernice his brother's daughter. But Claudius Caesar bestowed his dominions on Agrippa, junior.

  Ventidius Cumanus 48–52
  
  Antiquities of the Jews - Book XX CHAPTER 6
  

  2. But the principal of the Samaritans went to Ummidius Quadratus, the president of Syria, who at that time was at Tyre, and accused the Jews of setting their villages on fire, and plundering them; and said withal, that they were not so much displeased at what they had suffered, as they were at the contempt thereby showed the Romans; while if they had received any injury, they ought to have made them the judges of what had been done, and not presently to make such devastation, as if they had not the Romans for their governors; on which account they came to him, in order to obtain that vengeance they wanted. This was the accusation which the Samaritans brought against the Jews. But the Jews affirmed that the Samaritans were the authors of this tumult and fighting, and that, in the first place, Cumanus had been corrupted by their gifts, and passed over the murder of those that were slain in silence; - which allegations when Quadratus heard, he put off the hearing of the cause, and promised that he would give sentence when he should come into Judea, and should have a more exact knowledge of the truth of that matter. So these men went away without success. Yet was it not long ere Quadratus came to Samaria, where, upon hearing the cause, he supposed that the Samaritans were the authors of that disturbance. But when he was informed that certain of the Jews were making innovations, he ordered those to be crucified whom Cumanus had taken captives. From whence he came to a certain village called Lydda, which was not less than a city in largeness, and there heard the Samaritan cause a second time before his tribunal, and there learned from a certain Samaritan that one of the chief of the Jews, whose name was Dortus, and some other innovators with him, four in number, persuaded the multitude to a revolt from the Romans; whom Quadratus ordered to be put to death:

  Note that at this point the first crucifixions in Israel in the first century were c. 47 first under Tiberius Alexander and than under Cumanus. For both, the cause of crucifixion contained two ingredients:
  
  • 1) Political opposition to Rome
    
    2) 1) in quanity
  Exactly what we would expect based on what we otherwise know about the practice of Roman crucifixion.
  
  Antonius Felix 52–60
  
  Porcius Festus 60–62
  
  Albinus 62–64
  
  Gessius Florus 64–66

Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

ErrancyWiki

[maryhelena]

JW:
List of Procurators of Judea per Josephus for relevant time period:

• Pontius Pilate 26–36 [Jesus' supposed time. Not counting the TF for now/forever, no crucifixions reported]
  
  Marcellus 36–37 [no crucifixions reported]
  
  Marullus 37–41 [no crucifixions reported]
  
  Cuspius Fadus 44–46 [no crucifixions reported]
  
  Tiberius Julius Alexander 46–48
  

  2. Then came Tiberius Alexander as successor to Fadus; he was the son of Alexander the alabarch of Alexandria, which Alexander was a principal person among all his contemporaries, both for his family and wealth: he was also more eminent for his piety than this his son Alexander, for he did not continue in the religion of his country. Under these procurators that great famine happened in Judea, in which queen Helena bought corn in Egypt at a great expense, and distributed it to those that were in want, as I have related already. And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor. And now it was that Cumanus came as successor to Tiberius Alexander; as also that Herod, brother of Agrippa the great king, departed this life, in the eighth year of the reign of Claudius Caesar. He left behind him three sons; Aristobulus, whom he had by his first wife, with Bernicianus, and Hyrcanus, both whom he had by Bernice his brother's daughter. But Claudius Caesar bestowed his dominions on Agrippa, junior.

So, a revolt around 6 ce. but no mention of crucifixion for Judas......
I think, when one is dealing with Josephus it's always worthwhile considering where he places his stories/events. Yes, 6 ce. was an important year for Judea (taking Josephus at his written word....) but perhaps more important were the events 70 years prior - the events of 63 bce.

• But if one of the two roots of Graetz’s original error was to underestimate the
  significance of politics for Jews in our period, other
  defenders of the assumption that 70 was a watershed have erred by
  overstating that same element. I refer to those many who write as if
  70 meant the demise of a Jewish state—which is simply not true. The
  end of the Jewish state had come already in 63 bce, when Pompey
  conquered Hasmonean Judea; or at least in 6 ce, when Rome put an
  end to even the Herodian vassal state and incorporated Judea directly
  into the empire.
  
  Daniel Schwartz: Preface to ''Was 70 CE a Watershed in Jewish History?''

[/list]

Thus, a 70 year period of great significance for the Jewish state. Perhaps a parallel can be drawn between the events following 63 bce. and the events Josephus says followed 6 ce. i.e. Judas and his two sons being based on the history of Aristobulus and his sons Alexander and Antigonus. History repeating itself as in a Josephan repeat/replay of earlier events. It's not just the gospel writers than can create literary figures....

Today, in the UK, is the 70th year commemoration of the surrender of Japan in 1945. Those who died in the conflict in South-East Asia were remembered - with many survivors walking the streets of London - many veterans in wheelchairs. To imagine that Josephus would not have had the events of 63 bce. in mind, when relating events he assigned to 6 c.e., would surely be mistaken.

Joseph - you need to go backward to Jewish history to find the roots of the gospel story.....