Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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DCHindley
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Re: Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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Ben C. Smith wrote:
DCHindley wrote:I just finished the book. The part about the correspondence between Peregrinus and Ignatius resonates much better with me than the part about the Appelian origin of the Gospel of John.
Do you have a better reading of the gospel of John? I found his arguments very interesting, and DeConick's, as well. But I am always up for trying to see that gospel through fresh eyes. So many mysteries there.
Not necessarily. While I have noticed the strange "anti-Judean" language of the gospel, I have generally attributed it to a backlash against Jews for the recently failed rebellions in Judea/Galilee and a generation after that in Egypt. If the gospel is from Egypt (e.g., the use of Philo's unique Logos terminology) the latter revolt almost wiped out all Judeans resident in the country because of the extremes the rebels went to. Non-Judeans (Greeks, native Egyptians, Romans) had come up with all sorts of characterizations (probably most all made up) of Judeans eating the flesh of, and drinking blood of, the non-Judeans they killed.

The non-Judeans came to greatly fear Judeans, and with fear comes unfounded charges. Just like in our country, undocumented Mexicans in the US are "all" rapists and bloodthirsty drug lords (even though the paltry wages they earn in the USA is several times what they can earn in their own country, and they tend to go back to spend it at home) and Muslim Syrian refugees are "all" fanatic cut-throat terrorists (even though ISIL barbarity - plus their own Government's indiscriminate bombing of residential neighborhoods - is exactly what they are fleeing in the first place, including doctors, university professors and other professionals).

DCH
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MrMacSon
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Re: Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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DCHindley wrote: ...While I have noticed the strange "anti-Judean" language of the gospel, I have generally attributed it to a backlash against Jews for the recently failed rebellions in Judea/Galilee and a generation after that in Egypt. If the gospel is from Egypt (e.g., the use of Philo's unique Logos terminology) the latter revolt almost wiped out all Judeans resident in the country because of the extremes the rebels went to. Non-Judeans (Greeks, native Egyptians, Romans) had come up with all sorts of characterizations (probably most all made up) of Judeans eating the flesh of, and drinking blood of, the non-Judeans they killed.
I wonder if John's Gospel is from Ephesus (or somewhere close-by) and Ephesus had a close relationship with Alexandria by way of trade via shipping. Many followers of 'John' or the various Johns are asserted to be from near Ephesus. From wikipedia ( John the Apostle) "The 'bishops of Asia Minor' supposedly requested him to write his gospel to deal with the heresy of the Ebionites, who asserted that Christ did not exist before Mary."
RParvus
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Re: Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

Post by RParvus »

DCHindley wrote:
You mention a lot of little peculiarities I also had noticed in Ignatius, Gospel of John, the letters to the seven churches in the first three chapters of the Apocalypse, the Clementine Homilies, etc. I am not sure I agree with how you tie them all together to Apelles, or as accommodations or refutations to the teachings of the mystery man, at least not in some cases.

DCH
I am least comfortable with my attempt, at the end of the book, to bring the Acts of the Apostles, Revelation, the Pseudo-Clementines and 1 Corinthians into the scenario. There is admittedly much in pages 127 – 141 that I no longer care to defend.
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Re: Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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The Ultimate source of the motif of a bird ascending at the funeral pyre is the Funeral of Augustus
42 1 Such was the eulogy read by Tiberius. Afterwards the same men as before took up the couch and carried it through the triumphal gateway, according to a decree of the senate. Present and taking part in the funeral procession were the senate and the equestrian order, their wives, the pretorian guard, and practically all the others who were in the city at the time. 2 When the body had been placed on the pyre in the Campus Martius, all the priests marched round it first; and then the knights, not only those belonging to the equestrian order but the others as well, and the infantry from the garrison ran round it; and they cast upon it all the triumphal decorations that any of them had ever received from him for any deed of valour. 3 Next the centurions took torches, conformably to a decree of the senate, and lighted the pyre from beneath. So it was consumed, and an eagle released from it flew aloft, appearing to bear his spirit to heaven. When these ceremonies had been performed, all the other people departed; 4 but Livia remained on the spot for five days in company with the most prominent knights, and then gathered up his bones and placed them in his tomb
This became standard at Emperors' funerals http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... eosis.html
When all of this is done, the others set fire to it on every side, which easily catches hold of the faggots and aromatics; and from the highest and smallest story, as from a pinnacle, an eagle is let loose to mount into the sky as the fire ascends, which is believed by the Romans to carry the soul of the emperor from earth to heaven; and from that time he is worshipped with the other gods
Herodian IV 2.

Andrew Criddle
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MrMacSon
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Re: Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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andrewcriddle wrote: The Ultimate source of the motif of a bird ascending at the funeral pyre is [Cassius Dio's account of] the Funeral of Augustus
42 2 When the body had been placed on the pyre in the Campus Martius, all the priests marched round it first; and then the knights, not only those belonging to the equestrian order but the others as well, and the infantry from the garrison ran round it; and they cast upon it all the triumphal decorations that any of them had ever received from him for any deed of valour. 3 Next the centurions took torches, conformably to a decree of the senate, and lighted the pyre from beneath. So it was consumed, and an eagle released from it flew aloft, appearing to bear his spirit to heaven. When these ceremonies had been performed, all the other people departed; 4 but Livia remained on the spot for five days in company with the most prominent knights, and then gathered up his bones and placed them in his tomb
Augustus's name has cropped up to me a few times recently in relation to topics on this BC&H Forum -
in the Imperial Roman cult in those times, when a Roman Emperor died and was deified the heir, the Emperor's son, was 'adopted' as the 'son of God' eg. "the son of the divine Augustus". http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 063#p48063
In God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now (2007), John Dominic Crossan ... points out that
  • "there was a human being in the first century who was called 'Divine,' 'Son of God,' 'God,' and 'God from God'; - whose titles were 'Lord,' 'Redeemer,' 'Liberator,' and 'Saviour of the World'."

    "Most Christians probably think that those titles were originally created and uniquely applied to Christ. But, before Jesus ever existed, all those terms belonged to Caesar Augustus." [p.28]
Crossan cites the adoption of them by the early Christians to apply to Jesus as denying them of Caesar the Augustus.
  • "They were taking the identity of the Roman emperor and giving it to a Jewish peasant. Either that was a peculiar joke and a very low lampoon, or it was what the Romans called majestas and we call high treason."
God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now, Harper; San Francisco, 2007. ISBN 978-0-06-084323-6
andrewcriddle wrote: This became standard at Emperors' funerals http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... eosis.html
When all of this is done, the others set fire to it on every side, which easily catches hold of the faggots and aromatics; and from the highest and smallest story, as from a pinnacle, an eagle is let loose to mount into the sky as the fire ascends, which is believed by the Romans to carry the soul of the emperor from earth to heaven; and from that time he is worshipped with the other gods
Moreover, from that page -
In conformity with this account, it is common to see on medals struck in honour of an apotheosis an altar with fire on it, and an eagle, the bird of Jupiter, taking flight into the air. The number of medals of this description is very numerous. We can from these medals alone trace the honours of an apotheosis, from the time of Julius Caesar to that of Constantine the Great. On most of them the word Consecratio occurs, and on some Greek coins the word ΑΦΙΕΡΩϹΙϹ ...

... on the triumphal Arch of Titus ...Titus is represented [on the ceiling of the arch] as being carried up to the skies on an eagle.

There is a beautiful representation of the apotheosis of Augustus on an onyx-stone in the royal museum of Paris.

Many other monuments have come down to us, which represent an apotheosis. Of these the most celebrated is the bas-relief in the Townley gallery in the British Museum, which represents the apotheosis of Homer. It is clearly of Roman workmanship, and is supposed to have been executed in the time of the Emperor Claudius.

The wives, and other female relations of the emperors, sometimes received the honour of an apotheosis. This was the case with Livia Augusta, with Poppaea the wife of Nero, and with Faustina the wife of Antoninus [Emperor 138 to 161 AD/CE] (Suet. Claud. 11; Dion Cass. XL.5; Tac. Ann. XVI.21; Capitolin. Anton. Philos. 26).
It also brings up, to me, at least, the concept of " Interpretatio Christiana" where
  • "pre-Christian sources and myths were subject to Christian reinterpretation during their transmission or placed in Christian settings.

    "This presents difficulties for historical studies of the periods of conversion.[12] A number of early Christian writers noted similarities between elements of Christianity and some pagan traditions, such as the cult of Dionysus or Mithras; however, in order to defend Christianity, they insisted that 'these are plots of the devil to corrupt Christianity'. Also, when translating pagan notions into a Christian worldview, pagan deities themselves were reinterpreted as demons.[13]"
Orosius’s Historiae adversus paganos is a counter-narrative set against traditional Roman
historiography. Instead of a magnificent Roman past, he construes a history of humankind in which
things happen under the guidance of divine providence. Christ is born and Christianity
appears to have appeared in the Roman Empire during the reign of Emperor Augustus just when
Roman power was at its height – all this according to a 'divine plan'.

'Seizing History: Christianising the Past in Late Antique Historiography'
.
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DCHindley
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Re: Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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I posted a comment on the Apelles & the Gospel of John thread about mental disorders and behaviors exhibited by Ignatius, and by Apelles' associate Philumena (as described by others).

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 619#p48619

The reason I bring it up is because one of the arguments I have been using to justify attempts to stratify the Pauline letters, was that Paul would almost have to be schizophrenic to have written the letters as they have come down to us.

By schizophrenic (I am betraying my age here, as this term had fallen into disrepute by the end of the 20th century), I mean that he could subconsciously carry about two entirely different but individually internally consistent ways of thinking, which were mixed together in a weird manner in his conscious verbalizations. I doubt that what I am describing even comes close to any textbook definitions popular in the professions of Psychology/Psychiatry.

Anyhow, I did not think that Paul was likely so affected and also be able to support himself in travels across several provinces, and thus other explanations such as stratification deserved more serious consideration.

What might others here think about the relationship between mental state and ability to make a living for ones' self? Naturally, this sort of thing affects individuals to varying degrees, so no blanket assertions can be assumed.

DCH
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Re: Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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andrewcriddle wrote:The Ultimate source of the motif of a bird ascending at the funeral pyre is the Funeral of Augustus
Agreed. Lucian's tale of the vulture in The Passing of Peregrinus comes off as a spoof of this motif:

39 In that business I assure you, my friend, I had no end of trouble, telling the story to all while they asked questions and sought exact information. Whenever I noticed a man of taste, I would tell him the facts without embellishment, as I have to you, but for the benefit of the dullards, agog to listen, I would thicken the plot a bit on my own account, saying that when the pyre was kindled and Proteus flung himself bodily in, a great earthquake first took place, accompanied by a bellowing of the ground, and then a vulture, flying up out of the midst of the flames, went off to Heaven, saying, in human speech, with a loud voice: “I am through with the earth; to Olympus I fare.” They were wonder-struck and blessed themselves with a shudder, and asked me whether the vulture sped eastwards or westwards; I made them whatever reply occurred to me.

40 On my return to the festival, I came upon a grey-haired man whose face, I assure you, inspired confidence in addition to his beard and his general air of consequence, telling all about Proteus, and how, since his cremation, he had beheld him in white raiment a little while ago, and had just now left him walking about cheerfully in the Portico of the Seven Voices, wearing a garland of wild olive. Then on top of it all, he put the vulture, swearing that he himself had seen it flying up out of the pyre, when I myself had just previously let it fly to ridicule fools and dullards.

Lucian elsewhere, in Icaromenippus, pairs off an eagle and a vulture. The character mounts one wing of each on his shoulders in order to fly, specifically noting the connection of the former to Zeus and the unfitness of the latter by comparison:

Well, I caught a fine eagle, and also a particularly powerful vulture, and cut off their wings above the shoulder-joint.

....

I caught the birds, and effectually amputated the eagle's right, and the vulture's left wing. These I fastened together, attached them to my shoulders with broad thick straps, and provided grips for my hands near the end of the quill-feathers.

....

When I approached the Moon, long after parting from the clouds, I was conscious of fatigue, especially in the left or vulture's wing.

....

Three days' flight through the stars, with the Sun on my right hand, brought me close to Heaven; and my first idea was to go straight in as I was; I should easily pass unobserved in virtue of my half-eagleship; for of course the eagle was Zeus's familiar; on second thoughts, though, my vulture wing would very soon betray me.

However, any original connection of either of these avian motifs (Augustan or Lucianic) to the death of Polycarp is dodgy: our extant copies of the Martyrdom of Polycarp 16.1-2 do describe a dove flying off:

1 At length, when those wicked men perceived that his body could not be consumed by the fire, they commanded an executioner to go near and pierce him through with a dagger. And on his doing this, there came forth a dove, and a great quantity of blood, so that the fire was extinguished; and all the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, 2 of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.

1 Πέρας γοῦν ἰδόντες οἰ ἄνομοι μὴ δυνάμενον αὐτοῦ τὸ σῶμα ὑπὸ τοῦ πυρὸς δαπανηθῆναι ἐκέλευσαν προσελθόντα αὐτῷ κομφέκτορα παραβῦσαι ξιφίδιον. καὶ τοῦτο ποιήσαντος, ἐξῆλθεν περιστερὰ καὶ πλῆθος αἵματος, ὥστε κατασβέσαι τὸ πῦρ καὶ θαυμάσαι πάντα τὸν ὄχλον, εἰ τοσαύτη τις διαφορὰ μεταξὺ τῶν τε ἀπίστων καὶ τῶν ἐκλεκτῶν· 2 ὧν εἷς καὶ οὗτος γεγόνει ὁ θαυμασιώτατος μάρτυς Πολύκαρπος, ἐν τοῖς καθ’ ἡμᾶς χρόνοις διδάσκαλος ἀποστολιδὸς καὶ προφητικὸς γενόμενος, ἐπίσκοπος ἀποστολικὸς καὶ προφητικὸς γενόμενος, ἐπίσκοπος τῆς ἐν Σμύνῃ καθολικῆς ἐκκλησίας. πᾶν γὰρ ῥήμα, ὃ ἀφῆκεν ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐτελειώθη καὶ τελειωθήσεται.

But in History of the Church 4.15.39, while copying directly from the Martyrdom, Eusebius famously fails to mention any dove:

39 And when he had done this there came forth a quantity of blood so that it extinguished the fire; and the whole crowd marveled that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this man also was one, the most wonderful teacher in our times, apostolic and prophetic, who was bishop of the catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came from his mouth was accomplished and will be accomplished.

39 καὶ τοῦτο ποιήσαντος, ἐξῆλθεν πλῆθος αἵματος, ὥστε κατασβέσαι τὸ πῦρ καὶ θαυμάσαι πάντα τὸν ὄχλον εἰ τοσαύτη τις διαφορὰ μεταξὺ τῶν τε ἀπίστων καὶ τῶν ἐκλεκτῶν· ὧν εἷς καὶ οὗτος γέγονεν ὁ θαυμασιώτατος ἐν τοῖς καθ' ἡμᾶς χρόνοις διδάσκαλος ἀποστολικὸς καὶ προφητικὸς γενόμενος ἐπίσκοπος τῆς ἐν Σμύρνῃ καθολικῆς ἐκκλησίας· πᾶν γὰρ ῥῆμα ὃ ἀφῆκεν ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐτελειώθη καὶ τελειωθήσεται.

Rufinus has: "quo facto tam largus profusus est sanguis ut restingueret rogum."

Either Eusebius has for some reason omitted the dove or the dove is a pious addition from a later pen.

Ben.
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Re: Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote:Either Eusebius has for some reason omitted the dove [in his quotation from the Martyrdom of Polycarp] or the dove is a pious addition from a later pen.
The eagle that flew from Augustus' pyre (and those of later dead emperors) was more than likely staged by the authorities as the eagle, not by coincidence, was the symbol of the Roman republic/empire itself.

At any rate, it seems to me that the dove in the account in the Martyrdom of Polycarp has substituted the dove said to have alighted on Jesus at his baptism.

On the other hand, maybe it was not uncommon for birds like pigeons or doves to take refuge in funeral pyres, after construction but prior to ignition of course, which when lit causes them to fly out. This phenomenon, which may seem startling and serendipitous to those attending the solemn event, lent itself to symbolic interpretation, such as the decedent's soul rising to the heavens.

The kind of pyre used to roast a prisoner alive would be similarly built. However, I think that the dove flying out after he was pierced by a dagger (ch 16) as a pious gilding of the lily by the author(s), although I do think it possible that his blood and bodily fluids did squirt out and at least partially douse the fire.

Do I smell bread baking? (Martyrdom of Polycarp ch. 15)

DCH :goodmorning:
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Re: Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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Robert Price refers to the Ignatian corpus as "almost certainly a set of bogus pseudepigrapha, it serves as a prime example of the sort of pious fabrication that forms the martyrdom tradition" when reviewing Candida Moss's The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom HarperOne, 2013.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... cution.htm
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