Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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DCHindley
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by DCHindley »

MrMacSon wrote:Do you think they [i.e., fathers like Jerome] 'sanitized' [the works of Origen] to make it seem there had been a more consistent theological theme through early antiquity?
Yes. I think they had to admit that men like Origen were clearly right about most of what they wrote, but that small remainder of heterodox ideas scared them. For instance, Origen, following Plato, thought that all souls, even the devil's, could be saved in time if they passed through life (were reincarnated) enough times, like gold is refined in a furnace.
DCHindley wrote:
Mr Macson wrote:Several corpuses seem to be the results of crazy editors or even crazy, later compilers.
I do not get that impression. Mainly Ignatius' letters, and maybe 1st Clement.
Cheers. but not the Irenaeus corpus? or the corpus of Origen?
Well, definitely Origen, Even Eusebius was rehabilitated as some thought he had been too cozy with the Arians. Yet all agreed that Eusebius was too important for the organization of the Christian churches after Constantine legitimatized their existence, and helped define it's new self definition, to be ignored completely. The Greek and Latin versions both survived, so any rehabilitation was minor compared to Origen, where the bulk of his Greek original works were lost.
DCHindley wrote: ... Heresy-hunting authors tended to pass on and rework the same cliché (and often plainly wrong descriptions) of the authors of heresy and what they are thought to have taught. Irenaeus > Tertullian > Hippolytus.
Interesting. So, stuff was being re-worked through the 4th, 5th, & 6th centuries and, maybe, beyond?
Probably after Constantine, so 4th century onwards, maybe closer to 5th century.
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by DCHindley »

Well,

It has come to my attention through a recent colonoscopy that my colon (large intestine) has more zigs and zags in it than most do, so it turns out that many were correct about me all along, that I am indeed more full of crap than most.

That being said, I found that I was wrong that there is no Syriac version of the letter to the Trallians. Oh woe! There is indeed a fragment, found at the end of the Syriac Ignatian letter to the Romans (between chapters 9 & 10) which corresponds to chapter 4 & 5 of the letter to the Trallians. Who knew?

So, in keeping with my policy I have attached a copy of a PDF of the comparison of the ETs of the shorter & longer Greek with the Syriac fragments of Trallians.
(Ignatius) Trallians (ETs of shorter & longer Greek & Syriac fragment, compared).pdf
More grist for the mill
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For those who expected me to provide a comparison of the ETs of the shorter & longer Greek and the Syriac letter to the Romans, it is also attached.
(Ignatius) Romans (ETs of shorter & longer Greek & Syriac, compared).pdf
Krazy, isn't it?
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Whatever ...
Attachments
Ignatz, Krazy Kat, and ... Jar Jar Binks?
Ignatz, Krazy Kat, and ... Jar Jar Binks?
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Last edited by DCHindley on Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ignatius: Krazy Man or Krazy editors?

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I think I will proceed next to the Ignatian letter to Polycarp, another well known fellow of dubious historicity, IMHO, as there is also a Syriac version of it. It will take a few days ...
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Re: Ignatius: Krazy Man or Krazy editors?

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Well,

I'll be ding dang dongled but it seems that this G-E analysis of Ignatius's epistle to Polycarp went quite a bit faster than normal.

I figured out a way to quickly segment the shorter & longer texts by chapter and section, which will save a lot of time on the remaining two letters, to the Philadelphians and Smyrneans.

See the attached PDF. This letter actually does not seem anywhere near as fake as the others. FWIW, Polycarp, who hailed from Smyrna in Asia Minor, has been suggested as a publisher of sets of books that later became "canonized" as the NT we know and love today. Irenaeus says he sat at Polycarp's feet as a child before moving to Lugdunum (present day Lyons in France). Interestingly, Irenaeus cites only the NT as we have it, and nothing we currently recognize as apocryphal at all.

When (and if) I get a chance today I'll compare the ETs of the shorter & longer versions of the Letter to Polycarp and the Syriac and post the same.

I was a bit surprised to realize that there is a shorter & longer Greek text to one of the "inauthentic" Ignatian epistles, the letter of Mary of Cassobelae to Ignatius (IΓNATIΩI MAΡIA EK KAΣΣOBOΛΩN). I will have to add this to the list.
Attachments
(Ignatius) To Polycarp (Shorter & Longer G-E analysis).pdf
This one actually could pass as a real letter.
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Re: Ignatius: Krazy Man or Krazy editors?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Thanks again, David. Your status and position in the afterlife is steadily climbing.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
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Re: Ignatius: Krazy Man or Krazy editors?

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Ben C. Smith wrote:Thanks again, David. Your status and position in the afterlife is steadily climbing.

But only if I am reincarnated numerous times, Origen style ...
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Re: Ignatius: Krazy Man or Krazy editors?

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The file with ETs of the shorter & longer Greek and Syriac versions of the Letter to Polycarp compared is attached.
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(Ignatius) To Polycarp (ETs of shorter & longer Greek & Syriac, compared).pdf
Hi ho
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Re: Ignatius: Krazy Man or Krazy editors?

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes this is quite useful and good.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
zelos
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Re: Ignatius: Krazy Man or Krazy editors?

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Hello, new here. I noticed some writers here were online. This title caught my eye, because of my conviction that some of these 'Ignatius' letters were either fabricated or manipulated solely to propagate the idea that bishops/priests were put in place by God, given Gods approval, and that this idea must be observed by all otherwise you would be a infidel/heretic to suggest otherwise. Since the Bishop/presbytery authority thing is the 'repeated' argument throughout them all.

Are not these Ignatius epistles just fabricated/plagiarisms all bent on the intent to bolster the idea of a bishop/deacon supremacy?

I did not come to this conclusion overnight, I have long cited these texts with the opinion/doubt that their authenticity is questionable at least (Clement as well). 25 years ago I picked up a Book of Mormon and quickly sensed that Ol' Joe had just cut and pasted hundreds of NT scriptures together to make his new book sound like it was biblical. Well when I picked up 'Ignatius to Ephesians' (Ignatius to Magnesians, Ignatius to Trallians, Ignatius to Philadelphians, Ignatius to Smyrneans, Polycarp and Romans) I could swear Joseph Smith had writ them all. Actually Josephs book carried a better script, was 'less' obviously plagiarized, and written simply to promote itself. (I am a theology student, and a bit OCD concerning cults, isms and comparative religions)

Any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks :|
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Re: Ignatius: Krazy Man or Krazy editors?

Post by DCHindley »

zelos wrote:Hello, new here. I noticed some writers here were online. This title caught my eye, because of my conviction that some of these 'Ignatius' letters were either fabricated or manipulated solely to propagate the idea that bishops/priests were put in place by God, given Gods approval, and that this idea must be observed by all otherwise you would be a infidel/heretic to suggest otherwise. Since the Bishop/presbytery authority thing is the 'repeated' argument throughout them all.

Are not these Ignatius epistles just fabricated/plagiarisms all bent on the intent to bolster the idea of a bishop/deacon supremacy?

I did not come to this conclusion overnight, I have long cited these texts with the opinion/doubt that their authenticity is questionable at least (Clement as well). 25 years ago I picked up a Book of Mormon and quickly sensed that Ol' Joe had just cut and pasted hundreds of NT scriptures together to make his new book sound like it was biblical. Well when I picked up 'Ignatius to Ephesians' (Ignatius to Magnesians, Ignatius to Trallians, Ignatius to Philadelphians, Ignatius to Smyrneans, Polycarp and Romans) I could swear Joseph Smith had writ them all. Actually Josephs book carried a better script, was 'less' obviously plagiarized, and written simply to promote itself. (I am a theology student, and a bit OCD concerning cults, isms and comparative religions)

Any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks :|
Well, welcome to the discussion.

I have long thought the Ignatian epistles were more or less authentic with possibly interpolations, but now that I have had the opportunity to "analyze" most of the "authentic" letters, both short and long forms, the more it seems they are not authentic, but pseudepigrapha.

Whether he (or she) was doing so to promote a stronger position for bishops and perhaps a patriarchal POV, as proposed by Elaine Pagels, I am not so convinced. What I think is that the author is the same for both short & long Greek editions, or rather short and long winded versions if you will, the longer edition being later than the shorter. There might be a common source between them, and if so, it may have been written in Syriac. I also divine that the author was a great admirer of the populist bishop Epiphanius, so date these at the earliest around, or a little after, Epiphanius' time.

DCH (I have been chosen by the powers-that-be in my household to perform a special chore involving shopping ...)
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