Ignatz: Krazy Kat or Krazy editors?

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DCHindley
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote:Thanks again, David.

The longer and shorter versions seem closer for this one.
Yes, there was one extra section in chapter 3, but it was one of the longer version's frequent quotes from scripture, much like the one already included just a little earlier in chapter 3.3, which really didn't require an separate chapter in my opinion.

The ANF translator also differently translated a fair number of identical clauses in both short & long versions. Usually he only did one or maybe two per book, so maybe he was experiencing some ambivalence about the grammar of the readings. When I encountered these instances, I usually chose the one that seemed to capture the essence of the Greek best or occasionally modified one of them based on info from Perseus, and used that translation for both versions.

Then there were occasions where the translation of the shorter version includes wholesale sections from the longer version not present in the Greek of the shorter version, which I removed, although these cases might have actually been emendations introduced by the person who compiled the module for BibleWorks 8. I have also seen this phenomenon in earlier books, but have not checked to see if it was so in the ANF volume. I just remove them.

This time I compared the BibleWorks Greek, supposedly that of Lightfoot, with the Greek of the file that purports to be a transcription of Migne's book on the genuine epistles of Ignatius, and except for one word (μοι for μου) at the end of section 1.2, they appear to be identical.

But as I mentioned earlier, I am not an expert by any means, but it always annoys me when these kinds of things get introduced into translations.

What concerned me the most was the "death wish" the author exhibited. Wow!
4.1) "I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ."

5.3) Short: "Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me"

Long: "Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let breakings, tearings, and separations of bones; let cutting off of members; let bruising to pieces of the whole body; and let the very torment of the devil come upon me"
If anyone remembers the "S.A.W." horror movies, pretty much all of these things were depicted, and a few more, probably also inspired by apocrypha, such as sawing a woman in half with a wood saw, which the sharper sort (no pun intended) may remember being the manner of death of Isaiah in the Martyrdom of Isaiah.

The guy needed an intervention. But of course, he WAS supposed to be under stress.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote:What concerned me the most was the "death wish" the author exhibited. Wow!
4.1) "I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ."

5.3) Short: "Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me"

Long: "Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let breakings, tearings, and separations of bones; let cutting off of members; let bruising to pieces of the whole body; and let the very torment of the devil come upon me"
If anyone remembers the "S.A.W." horror movies, pretty much all of these things were depicted, and a few more, probably also inspired by apocrypha, such as sawing a woman in half with a wood saw, which the sharper sort (no pun intended) may remember being the manner of death of Isaiah in the Martyrdom of Isaiah.

The guy needed an intervention. But of course, he WAS supposed to be under stress.
Irenaeus approvingly quoted the "wheat of God" bit in Against Heresies 5.28.4.

Some of those early Christian martyrs probably were not a very mentally stable bunch. At various points throughout those early centuries one will actually find them volunteering for martyrdom; church leaders had to preach against it in an attempt to curtail the practice.

(I have not seen the Saw movies, though the little I know about them makes me suspect I am just fine without them.)

Ben.
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RParvus
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by RParvus »

DCHindley wrote:

What concerned me the most was the "death wish" the author exhibited. Wow!
4.1) "I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ."

5.3) Short: "Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me"

Long: "Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let breakings, tearings, and separations of bones; let cutting off of members; let bruising to pieces of the whole body; and let the very torment of the devil come upon me"
If anyone remembers the "S.A.W." horror movies, pretty much all of these things were depicted, and a few more, probably also inspired by apocrypha, such as sawing a woman in half with a wood saw, which the sharper sort (no pun intended) may remember being the manner of death of Isaiah in the Martyrdom of Isaiah.

The guy needed an intervention. But of course, he WAS supposed to be under stress.
The death wish is one of several similarities between “Ignatius” and Peregrinus. For instance, both loved taking on additional symbolic names. Another: both sent out letters and messengers to publicize their greatly desired deaths.

I suspect that the Ignatian letters are reworked letters of Peregrinus. Their original author was very much worried that he would not be allowed to consummate his sacrifice, and — if he was Peregrinus — that indeed turned out to be the case, for Lucian says that Peregrinus the Christian was ultimately released. But later in life, after Peregrinus abandoned Christianity for Cynicism, he found a way around such obstacles: He took matters into his own hands and, after gathering together a number of admiring onlookers, voluntarily ended his own life by leaping into flames.

“Ignatius who is also Theophorus” may be Christian substitute nomenclature for the apostate Peregrinus who is also Proteus.
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by DCHindley »

RParvus wrote:The death wish [of Ignatius] is one of several similarities between “Ignatius” and Peregrinus. For instance, both loved taking on additional symbolic names.
Well, there is only Theophorus as far as I know, and this is only in the introductions, which the ANF translator bracketed as possibly spurious.
Another: both sent out letters and messengers to publicize their greatly desired deaths.
Yes.
I suspect that the Ignatian letters are reworked letters of Peregrinus. Their original author was very much worried that he would not be allowed to consummate his sacrifice, and — if he was Peregrinus — that indeed turned out to be the case, for Lucian says that Peregrinus the Christian was ultimately released. But later in life, after Peregrinus abandoned Christianity for Cynicism, he found a way around such obstacles: He took matters into his own hands and, after gathering together a number of admiring onlookers, voluntarily ended his own life by leaping into flames.
The Ignatius of the Ignatian letters seems to alternate between wanting to be eaten by wild beasts, which he would egg-on if he had to, or publically be gruesomely tortured to death. The details suggest a knowledge of Martyrdom accounts from the 3rd century, which mention cases where beasts would not touch the victims, or the crowd reacts to breaking of bones and application of fire, etc.

Mmmmm ... Do I smell baked bread?
“Ignatius who is also Theophorus” may be Christian substitute nomenclature for the apostate Peregrinus who is also Proteus.
The Ignatian Ignatius seems to eschew fancy food and gifts to the soldiers, which Proteus' followers seems to have brought him. Iggy did seem to like the attention, though.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by MrMacSon »

These are interesting comments ^ ^^ ^^^, etc.

A heretic-prisoner being taken on a 'tour of duty', before martydom, the way the Ignatius narrative is presented, seems implausible.
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus quotes the Ignatius corpus but does not refer to the author by name. Ignatius is not a real name.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by MrMacSon »

How real is Irenaeus?

It would be good to work back from extant documents and try to elucidate how we got to them and how real or representative they are.

Several corpuses seem to be the results of crazy editors or even crazy, later compilers.


eta: Stephan Huller has alluded to that with the Tertullian texts: that what we have of them is later redacted texts -

  • Huller had alluded to different versions that exist as a result of redaction in different scenarios.

So how can we be sure the extant Tertullian texts reasonably represent the Marcion/Marcionite texts?


Same with Ignatius [and Irenaeus] (??).

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DCHindley
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by DCHindley »

MrMacSon wrote:How real is Irenaeus?

It would be good to work back from extant documents and try to elucidate how we got to them and how real or representative they are.
We do have extant documents, mainly a Latin translation and fragments of the Greek (the whole of Book 1 is contained in Epiphanius' Panarion, and extensive quotes/paraphrases in Hippolytus and others). FWIW, the Latin is "wooden" and seems to be an almost word for word rendering of the extant Greek fragments, but it is also true that the Greek fragments, where citations overlap, differ a bit one from the another.

Unfortunately, Irenaeus in the original Greek seems to have fallen by the wayside in the East, but they had Clement of Alexandria and Origen of wherever he was that year. Even in the West Irenaeus was not deemed especially dear. The Latin translation is of inferior quality to other Latin translations of Greek works. You didn't see translators of the quality of Jerome and company trying to translate Irenaeus, but you do see them translate Origen, etc., although they often do so to "rehabilitate" the author by sanitizing their work of the taint of heresy. Apparently, Irenaeus was not considered a heretic in need of sanitization. Tertullian, whose natural language would be Latin and dang good at it, probably had nothing to do with "wooden" Latin Irenaeus.
Several corpuses seem to be the results of crazy editors or even crazy, later compilers.
I do not get that impression. Mainly Ignatius' letters, and maybe 1st Clement. In contrast, the Epistle of Barnabas, Epistle to Diognetus, etc., do not appear confused.
eta: Stephan Huller has alluded to that with the Tertullian texts: that what we have of them is later redacted texts -
  • Huller had alluded to different versions that exist as a result of redaction in different scenarios.
So how can we be sure the extant Tertullian texts reasonably represent the Marcion/Marcionite texts?
Huller thinks quite a lot of things, and spins a web of intrigue.
Same with Ignatius ... (??)
Naaah. I will agree, though, that Heresy Hunting authors tended to pass on and rework the same cliché and often plainly wrong descriptions of the authors of heresy and what they are thought to have taught. Irenaeus > Tertullian > Hippolytus.
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by Secret Alias »

Let me ask the unintriguing DCH is Ignatius an attested name in antiquity?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Ignatius: Crazy Man or Crazy editors?

Post by Secret Alias »

I would argue from Lightfoot's summary (in spite of his efforts to show otherwise) that it is unattested. https://books.google.com/books?id=oZgwA ... me&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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