Does Luke edit Mark with more primitive data?

[Michael BG]

Here are my thought about the Last Supper in 1 Corinthians:
http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3.html#lastsupper
...

I had not heard of the “aorist tense”, but I am happy to translate παρέδωκα as “I transmit” rather than “I delivered”, so Paul is here passing on his revelation to the Christians of Corinth for the first time.

I expect Jesus did share a meal with some of his followers on the night he was arrested assuming he was arrested at night, but I am not convinced it was done in way set out by Paul and the gospel writers. It seems strange for a tradition in the church to grow up of celebrating the Last Supper more than once a year if it is based on an event that only happened once.

With regard to παρεδίδετο (the third “delivered”) it can be translated as “he surrendered” or “he entrusted” maybe himself to the divine plan.

[Bernard Muller]

I expect Jesus did share a meal with some of his followers on the night he was arrested assuming he was arrested at night, but I am not convinced it was done in way set out by Paul and the gospel writers. It seems strange for a tradition in the church to grow up of celebrating the Last Supper more than once a year if it is based on an event that only happened once.

About the making of the Last Supper:
I think about that possibility: Paul knew, through the eyewitnesses, that Jesus was arrested before he had supper with his followers.
From that, Paul imagined that Jesus could have had his last supper in a jail cell later, with no eyewitnesses --
this last supper consisting of bread and water (in a cup) -- and then Jesus would have done his ritual as described in 1 Corinthians, even with no audience.
Later, Paul would claim that the heavenly Jesus, through revelation, described to him the last Supper (conveniently not observed by eyewitnesses!) and Paul used that to solve some unruly behavior before and during the Lord Supper, a common meal shared by a community of Christians.
Then "Mark" set the Last Supper with the disciples and as the Passover meal ...

Cordially, Bernard

[robert j]

About the making of the Last Supper:
I think about that possibility: Paul knew, through the eyewitnesses, that Jesus was arrested before he had supper with his followers.
From that, Paul imagined that Jesus could have had his last supper in a jail cell later, with no eyewitnesses --
this last supper consisting of bread and water (in a cup) -- and then Jesus would have done his ritual as described in 1 Corinthians, even with no audience

Such speculations and further myth-making are rendered entirely unnecessary if this part below is taken as the stand-alone solution --- with Paul’s revelation a light-bulb-moment and not supernatural ---

Paul would claim that the heavenly Jesus, through revelation, described to him the last Supper (conveniently not observed by eyewitnesses!) and Paul used that to solve some unruly behavior before and during the Lord Supper, a common meal shared by a community of Christians.
Then "Mark" set the Last Supper with the disciples and as the Passover meal ...

[Michael BG]

About the making of the Last Supper:
I think about that possibility: Paul knew, through the eyewitnesses, that Jesus was arrested before he had supper with his followers.
From that, Paul imagined that Jesus could have had his last supper in a jail cell later, with no eyewitnesses --
this last supper consisting of bread and water (in a cup) -- and then Jesus would have done his ritual as described in 1 Corinthians, even with no audience.
Later, Paul would claim that the heavenly Jesus, through revelation, described to him the last Supper (conveniently not observed by eyewitnesses!) and Paul used that to solve some unruly behavior before and during the Lord Supper, a common meal shared by a community of Christians.
Then "Mark" set the Last Supper with the disciples and as the Passover meal ...

Cordially, Bernard

When we look at the last week of Jesus narrative of Mark, some would identify a pre-Marcan narrative, but this is likely to have been influenced by religious practices of the early Christians and so the evidence about when Jesus was arrested is weak, not only at what time of day, but also what day.

If we assume that Paul is the first to talk about a ritualised Last Supper of bread and wine and this is based on his belief in a revelation from Jesus Christ, then I don’t think there is any evidence that there is a prison meal of bread and water as the basis of it.

[robert j]

... Paul would claim that the heavenly Jesus, through revelation, described to him the last Supper ...

Paul’s claims to speak for a heavenly Lord (1 Cor. 9:14, 11:23, and 14:37) were Paul-speak for --- ‘I made it up’ or ‘I teased it from the scriptures’.

[Aleph One]

@Michael BG: Maybe if you want to return more directly to original question of this thread you should pick a different example periscope? From what I can tell the history of the Last Supper text is as knotted a mess of differing opinions and endless investigations as practically any in the entire New Testament...

As for the latter posts of this thread, though, concerning the Last Supper and Paul, etc., I would suggest considering the supper ceremony in the Didache, which (IMHO, at least) is incredibly interesting because it seems to paint a picture of a communion ritual in the early church with no connection whatsoever to Jesus's sacrifice and it's atoning power.

I'm also with robert j that the way paul presents the meal sounds like some new revelation he has just received in a christly vision (perhaps in response to his prayers about what do about the unruly church meals, to put it non-cynically). Also it shouldn't be forgotten that he doesn't say anything here about Jesus's arrest, or Judas, or betrayal; he speaks of Jesus being 'offered up' without all the connotations imposed by the stories in the gospels.

[Michael BG]

@Michael BG: Maybe if you want to return more directly to original question of this thread you should pick a different example periscope? From what I can tell the history of the Last Supper text is as knotted a mess of differing opinions and endless investigations as practically any in the entire New Testament...

As for the latter posts of this thread, though, concerning the Last Supper and Paul, etc., I would suggest considering the supper ceremony in the Didache, which (IMHO, at least) is incredibly interesting because it seems to paint a picture of a communion ritual in the early church with no connection whatsoever to Jesus's sacrifice and it's atoning power.

I'm also with robert j that the way paul presents the meal sounds like some new revelation he has just received in a christly vision (perhaps in response to his prayers about what do about the unruly church meals, to put it non-cynically). Also it shouldn't be forgotten that he doesn't say anything here about Jesus's arrest, or Judas, or betrayal; he speaks of Jesus being 'offered up' without all the connotations imposed by the stories in the gospels.

The Eucharist ritual in the Didache is clearly a ritual of the church and is not in the context of the Last Supper, however it seems to be as described – a thanksgiving for Jesus with only a hint of a eschatological flavour in 9.8 “As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and being gathered together became one, so may Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom;” It has been suggested it might be early and it also has the cup/wine and bread order of the Passover.

As a new example of Luke maybe editing Mark I suggest Luke 3:16 an edited version of Mk 1:7-8. However this does not seem to be a very clear example and may only be Luke using Matthew. It has been suggested that:

"he who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie;” is likely to be a better translation because it “goes into simple rhythmic Aramaic” Matthew Black – An Aramaic Approach to the Gospels and Acts (1998 footnote p 144) than Mk 1:7 “After me comes he who is mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.”

Of course those who accept Q point to both Luke and Matthew having “he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire”, where “and with fire” was in Q and isn’t in Mark.

Please can people suggest other places where they believe or it has been suggested that Luke when editing Mark has a more primitive version? If there are no examples then the Mark Goodacre premise that Luke edited Matthew sometimes with a more primitive version I think is weakened.

[Ben C. Smith]

Please can people suggest other places where they believe or it has been suggested that Luke when editing Mark has a more primitive version? If there are no examples then the Mark Goodacre premise that Luke edited Matthew sometimes with a more primitive version I think is weakened.

I am not sure about Luke occasionally being "more primitive" than Mark, but there appears to be at least one pericope in which editorial fatigue of some kind suggests the Lucan account as earlier. In Mark 5.6-13 = Luke 8.28-33 Jesus exorcises the Gadarene demoniac, after which event, in Mark 5.14-15 = Luke 8.34-35, both authors narrate that the locals have come out to see what is going on and are amazed to find the demoniac himself, Legion, in his right mind and clothed (ιματισμενον). The reader of Luke is already aware that Legion was up until that point unclothed, because in 8.27 the narrator notes that Legion for quite some time had not dressed in clothing (χρονω ικανω ουκ ενεδυσατο ιματιον). But is the reader of Mark aware that Legion was unclothed before? No, because Mark has no parallel for the relevant part of Luke 8.27. The bit about Legion now being clothed comes as a surprise in Mark, but not in Luke. (Matthew 8.28-34 lacks mention of the clothing at all, so is not involved on either side of the fatigue.)

Ben.

[Ben C. Smith]

Here is an argument from Yuri Kuchinsky, with whom I find I very seldom agree, that the anointing story is Luke is more primitive than that in Mark: http://www.globalserve.net/~yuku/bbl/anoint.htm. No idea whether it will help you out or not.

Ben.

[Peter Kirby]

Yuri Kuchinsky is that strange lark who will chirp all the notes out of tune while sometimes getting a few interesting melodies that nobody ever bothered to sing.

Naturally I disliked him at first, then I became a little interested, and then I didn't care--but, still, it's just the kind of reading that is fun to go very cafeteria-style through. ... Like everything else, really, but cranked up to 11.

My favorite stuff from him was his rambling about the "Western" text. It took his unique brand of text type "fundamentalism" to become more aware that this kind of thing really matters (... the milquetoast "Orthodox Corruption of Scripture" Ehrman wasn't really enough of a "wake up call" there). Not just for text crit geeks who'll hand us all the answers, but really can make a difference ... which is the opposite of the thing you'll hear when reading apologetic-tinged literature, which is that we know all the answers in text crit, and the answers that we don't know don't really matter.