Michael BG wrote:I have yet to be persuaded that there is a theological reason why early Christians would make Jesus into a tekton.
What do you think of Géza Vermès' suggestion that Jesus was called a carpenter because of an old Jewish turn of phrase?
Now those familiar with the language spoken by Jesus are acquainted with a metaphorical use of 'carpenter' and 'carpenter's son' in ancient Jewish writings. In Talmudic sayings the Aramaic noun denoting carpenter or craftsman (naggar) stands for a 'scholar' or 'learned man'.
"This is something that no carpenter, son of carpenters, can explain."
"There is no carpenter, nor a carpenter's son, to explain it."
This usage fits right in with the context: Jesus is speaking in a synagogue.
Michael BG wrote:I have yet to be persuaded that there is a theological reason why early Christians would make Jesus into a tekton.
What do you think of Géza Vermès' suggestion that Jesus was called a carpenter because of an old Jewish turn of phrase?
Now those familiar with the language spoken by Jesus are acquainted with a metaphorical use of 'carpenter' and 'carpenter's son' in ancient Jewish writings. In Talmudic sayings the Aramaic noun denoting carpenter or craftsman (naggar) stands for a 'scholar' or 'learned man'.
"This is something that no carpenter, son of carpenters, can explain."
"There is no carpenter, nor a carpenter's son, to explain it."
This usage fits right in with the context: Jesus is speaking in a synagogue.
Another great link from Andrew. I read Vermes' Jesus the Jew a long time ago and I didn't remember this carpenter question, but after considering it and Andrew's link I find that I agree with the latter. But I thought this question was settled by MacDonald's theory that Mark is modeled on Homer; that Jesus was a tekton because Odysseus was one too. Where does this idea fit into your thinking, Ben?
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
I am not sure about the "carpenter" issue. The counter to Vermès' suggestion does seem, I will admit, pretty strong; and I had not committed to the notion even before reading it.
As for MacDonald on Mark and Homer... I have been unable to read the entire book so far, despite having checked it out quite recently. I have noticed spots, however, in which echoes of Homer directly compete with echoes of the LXX (the "other boats" in Mark 4.36, for example, which MacDonald explains by reference to the Odyssey but which I think comes directly from the multiple boats of Psalm 106.23-30 LXX, 107.23-30 Masoretic). In a showdown like this between Homer and the Jewish scriptures, the winner so far as I am concerned is going to be the Jewish scriptures, hands down.
But perhaps there are enough noncompeting details which are strong candidates for borrowing from Homer; I am not sure yet. Which ones did you find most persuasive? (Perhaps you could start a thread about them....)
Ben, the quote you provided from Geza Vermes didn’t include any evidence or consideration of the evidence from the Talmud and so wasn’t very convincing. However I found Calba Savua’s blog very convincing.
To whom have you likened the Lord, or with what likeness have you likened him? ...
For a τέκτων chooses wood that will not rot ...
his image and so that it will not topple.
Will you not know?
Will you not hear?
Has it not been declared to you from the beginning?
Have you not known the foundations of the earth?
(Isaiah 40:18-21, LXX)
Is not this the τέκτων? ...
are not His sisters here with us?
(Mark 6:3)
Last edited by robert j on Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder [ὡς σοφὸς ἀρχιτέκτων], and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.
(1 Cor 3:10)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
I assumed you had already read MacDonald's book on Mark and Homer since you recently mentioned reading his Two Shipwrecked Gospels (which I'm reading now on googlebooks thanks to you but not enjoying, which may be due to my distaste for speculation about hypothetical sources). The Mark and Homer idea works for me because I can see Homer and Mark and the LXX, and I can see that Homeric mimesis existed in antiquity, and MacDonald's theory explains features of Mark (e.g., Jesus being a tekton like Odysseus, sailing on boats like Odysseus, having an unfaithful "crew" like Odysseus, and concealing his true identity like Odysseus) convincingly enough for me.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
