Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by Secret Alias »

I woke up this morning thinking about the forum (strange enough!) and a theory that I had developed thanks to TedM that the second God Jesus had to die to be made one with the Father and its practical application on Christian doctrine. Why would Christians be 'baptized' into union with the Father if Jesus was crucified? It doesn't make sense I thought - unless some commonality was found between crucifixion and drowning.

And that I thought of it. Both lead to death and specifically death through deprivation of oxygen to the lungs.

Hmmm. I ruminated about lines in Paul like Romans 6
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.
Everything I have been talking about with regards to what happened to the second God Jesus after his death and resurrection is explicit in baptism - i.e. unification with the Father and recreation.

But then if this were true, there would have had to have been a Pauline gospel unlike the synoptics without any 'baptism of John' but rather an implicitly (or perhaps explicitly) baptism into death. Is it possible I asked myself that the catechumen, rather than being merely 'ceremonially' or ritually 'dipped' in water for 'purification' of some sort were - in the Pauline community at least physically drowned - something akin to the experience of waterboarding.

I know all the ancient references to baptism among the heretics and immediately one stood out. A passage in Irenaeus which is taken by Epiphanius to apply to the 'redemption' rite of the followers of Heracleon (even though in the text as it now stands seems to accord better with the Marcosians). We read of a rite which seems to imply a death (or possibly 'series of deaths' = waterboarding) and an accompanying heavenly ascent:
Others still there are who continue to redeem persons even up to the moment of death, by placing on their heads oil and water, or the pre-mentioned ointment with water, using at the same time the above-named invocations, that the persons referred to may become incapable of being seized or seen by the principalities and powers, and that their inner man may ascend on high in an invisible manner, as if their body were left among created things in this world, while their soul is sent forward to the Demiurge. And they instruct them, on their reaching the principalities and powers, to make use of these words: "I am a son from the Father--the Father who had a pre-existence, and a son in Him who is pre-existent. I have come to behold all things, both those which belong to myself and others, although, strictly speaking, they do not belong to others, but to Achamoth, who is female in nature, and made these things for herself. For I derive being from Him who is pre-existent, and I come again to my own place whence I went forth." And they affirm that, by saying these things, he escapes from the powers. He then advances to the companions of the Demiurge, and thus addresses them:--"I am a vessel more precious than the female who formed you. If your mother is ignorant of her own descent, I know myself, and am aware whence I am, and I call upon the incorruptible Sophia, who is in the Father, and is the mother of your mother, who has no father, nor any male consort; but a female springing from a female formed you, while ignorant of her own mother, and imagining that she alone existed; but I call upon her mother." And they declare, that when the companions of the Demiurge hear these words, they are greatly agitated, and upbraid their origin and the race of their mother. But he goes into his own place, having thrown [off] his chain, that is, his animal nature. These, then, are the particulars which have reached us respecting "redemption."
The ritual is identified as apolytrosis because it is quite literally understood as leading to the 'purchase' of the individual from one master (the Devil?) to Christ through death. The idea of Christians 'dying' in baptism is of course always understood as something taking place figuratively. A symbolic death by three gentle dunks in the water. However there is circumstantial evidence that the baptism involved 7 dunks (cf. Tertullian's discussion about Elisha) and the 7 dunks would seem to correspond to the seven planetary watchers described in Irenaeus's heretical ceremony.

According to this understanding then after 'dying' or specifically drowning seven times (once for each of the watchers) the individual passes through the final gate and sees Jesus or the Father and is transformed into a new creation made after his image.

My question now is whether we have been mis-translating baptizo to mean a host of things when it really meant 'to drown' either metaphorically or literally. Here are some examples:
"But when the sun had dipped himself (Greek, baptized himself) into the flood of the ocean, and the dark shining moon lead in the stormy night, then went forth the war-like men who dwelt in the northern mountains."—Orpheus.

"When a piece of iron is taken red hot from the fire, and is dipped (Gr., baptized) in water, the heat, being quenched by the peculiar nature of the water, ceases."—Heraclides Ponticus.

Polybius, describing a naval engagement between the Romans and Carthaginians, in which the latter were defeated, says that "on account of the weight of the vessels, and the unskilfulness of the rowers, they drowned (Gr., baptized) many of them."

In relating the siege of Syracuse, he says: "The greater part of their vessels being sunk (Gr., baptized) they were filled with consternation." In speaking of the naval engagement between Philip and Attalus, which happened near Chios, he says: "Attalus seeing one of his quinqueremes (galleys with five oars in a seat) sunk (Gr., baptized) by one of the enemy’s vessels,"

And I plunging (Gr., baptizing) you in the waves of the sea, will destroy you in the briny surges."—Alcibiades in Jacob’s Anthol.

Finding Cupid among the flowers, I caught him and plunged (Gr., baptized) him into wine, and drank him up."—Anacreon, in his Ode on Love in the Heart.

Aesop, in his fable of the Ape and the Dolphin, relates that the dolphin having generously undertaken to carry an ape ashore, who had been unfortunately wrecked at sea, became vexed with him for telling him a falsehood, and sinking (Gr., baptizing) him, "killed him;" that is, he plunged him under the water, till he was drowned. In the fable of the Shepherd and the Sea, he says: "The vessel being in danger of being sunk," (Gr., baptized,) &c.

Diodorus Siculus, speaking of the sudden swelling of the Nile, says: "Many of the land animals are overtaken by the river, and being sunk (Gr., baptized) perish."

In another place he says: "The Admiral’s ship being sunk, (Gr., baptized,) the armament was thrown into great confusion." In another he says: "The river rushing down with a violent current, sunk (Gr., baptized) many and destroyed them."

Baptizo always denotes a total immersion. If only a part of a thing be immersed, still it is an entire immersion of that part, and the context limits its extent. Thus, Polybius says: "The foot soldiers passed through, (the water,) scarcely immersed (Gr., baptized) to the paps."

Lucian, in Timon, the man-hater, makes him say " If I should see any one floating toward me upon the rapid torrent, and he should, with out-stretched hands, beseech me to assist him, I would thrust him from me, baptizing (baptizoiita) him, until he would rise no more."

Josephus, Ant. IX. 10, speaking of the ship in which Jonah was, says: " The ship being about to sink," {baptize sthai.)

Strabo, Lib. 6, speaking of a lake near Agrigentum, says: ''Things that elsewhere cannot float, DO NOT SINK," (me baptizesthai.) In Lib. 12, of a certain river he says : " If one shoots an arrow into it, the force of the water resists it so much, that it will scarcely sink," {baptizesthai.)

Heraclides, Allegor. says : " When a piece of iron is taken red hot from the fire, and plunged [baptizetai) into the water."

The Scholiast on Pindar, Pyth. IL 139. " Like the cork of a net in the sea, I am not plunged, or SUNK," {baptizomai.)

Plutarch, Vol. X, p. 18. *' Then plunging {haptizown) himself into the Lake Copais."
Figurative use -
Heliodorus, VI. 4. " When midnight had PLUNGED (ebaptizon) the city in sleep."

Lucian, III. p. 81. "He is like one dizzy and BAPTIZED or SUNK, (bebaptismeno,) viz. into insensibility by drinking."

Justin Martyr. " Overwhelmed with sins," {bebaptismenos. )

Plutarch. " Overwhelmed with debts," (bebaptismenon.)

Chrysostom. " Overwhelmed {baptizomenos) with innumerable cares."

The same author : " Overwhelmed (baptizomenoi) on all sides by the many waves of business."

Sprinkled with " wine," with " sins," with " debts," with " business," with " cares," would give a very faint idea of the true meaning and force of the above expressions.
Christian baptism references
Barnabas, the companion of Paul,* says in his Epistle, speaking of baptism, " We descend into the water, and come out of it.''

In the Pastor of Hermas, saluted by Paul, we read, "That seal is water, into which men descend bound over to death, but ascend out of it assigned to life."

Justin says : '' We represent our Lord's sufferings and resurrection by baptism in a pool."

Dioussius Areopag. " The total concealment in water fitly represents Christ's death and burial."

Apostolic Constitutions, (probably written in the fourth century.) "Baptism relates to the death of Christ: the water answers to the grave; the immersion represents our dying with him; the emersion our rising with him."

Photius. " The three immersions ^The emersions of baptism signify death and resurrection."

Chrysostom. '' We, as in a sepulchre, immersing our heads in water, the old man is buried and sinking down ; the whole is concealed at once ; then, as we emerge, the new man again rises."
It is interesting to note that dyeing is repeatedly compared to the process of baptism in the literature. I had no idea how the ancients dyed their fabrics. I think when we look at this video we get a little closer to the truth - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmnybeRN8H0

I can't help but think that the individual catechumen must have really believed that they might die or that they were dying. Drowning is scary. Just as people who've been waterboarded. It would represent a 'religious experience' insofar as death is the ultimate experience. It would also be wholly transformative - like almost dying in a plane crash.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by Secret Alias »

More:
We say, that such is the baptism not which may, under hard pressure, be extracted from the words, but that which actual usage demands; and that not in exceptional, nor in ordinary cases, merely, but in every case without exception.

And here is the proof: Classic Writers.

1. Polybius, Y, 47 = "Baptized in the pools " = death by drowning.
2. Plotinus, I, 8, 13 = " Baptizcd in the body " = death of the soul by corruption,
3. Alex. Aphrod., II, 38 = "Baptized in the depth of body " = death of the perceptive power.

Ecclesiastical Writers.

1. Basil 31., On Baptism = "Wool baptized in dye "^remaining in."
2. ibid = "Iron baptized in fire" = remaining in.

Jewish Writers.

1. Josephus Jewish War, 1, 22 "Baptized in a pool, he died " = death by drowning.

These are all the cases of this particular form (the verb with hen and a physical element) now within my knowledge. And it will be seen at a glance, that in every case, without exception, the baptized object is not taken out of the baptizing element, but remains within it.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by Secret Alias »

More - "John was baptizing in the wilderness, in Bethany, in AEnon, in Jordan, in water," has no other Greekly meaning than death by drowning." https://books.google.com/books?id=Ik_pF ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
iskander
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Re: Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by iskander »

Immersion ( baptism ) was a Jewish ritual that Christians inherited.
According to rabbinic law, then, in the Second Temple period the ritual requirements for conversion were three: circumcision, immersion, and sacrifice. The first of these applied only to men; the latter two applied to both men and women.19
19. B. Keritot 9a; see full discussion of this and related texts in my The Beginnings of Jewishness (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1999).
FROM THE MACCABEES TO THE MISHNAH
Second Edition
Shaye J. D. Cohen
page 41 ff
Secret Alias
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Re: Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by Secret Alias »

But it had nothing to do with death
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
iskander
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Re: Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by iskander »

Sacrifice is the third component of the rabbinic conversion ceremony , and Paul merges the sacrifice of Jesus with immersion. Paul leaves out circumcision to make men and women formally equal in the eyes of G-d.
Secret Alias
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Re: Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by Secret Alias »

But death is central in Paul and not in the Jewish purity ritual. They aren't the same
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
iskander
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Re: Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by iskander »

It is the rabbinic conversion ceremony that the Christian baptism is replicating , with modifications. The convert becomes a son of G-d in each religion.

The purification ritual , such as the sprinkling of an object with water, was also inherited by Christians: Catholic priests purify objects by sprinkling with blessed water.
Secret Alias
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Re: Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by Secret Alias »

But the Jewish rite has nothing to do with death and Pauline baptism has everything to do with death and resurrection. They are not the same
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Was Ancient Baptism = Religious Waterboarding?

Post by iskander »

They are not the same , true. Christianity was a heretic Jewish sect

Paul speaks of the sacrifice of Jesus . His message is that he was sacrificed once only, and resurrected in Paradise. It is a message of life., not of death. Baptism is very simple, all what it requires is water!

In Judaism membership of the tribe required the bleeding mutilation of the male body. water and the killing of some animal life.
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