Talmud and Messianc Texts vs Christian Sites

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Kris
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Talmud and Messianc Texts vs Christian Sites

Post by Kris »

I am really trying to understand a couple of Christian sites that want to allege that there were various scriptures in the Talmud that seemed to indicate that the Jews knew that that messiah had come, or should have come around Jesus' time.

The first site states the following:

Jesus In The Talmud


In the Talmud it is noted that God has made various numbers significant in His plan: they noted that there were ten names for idols and prophets, ten trials of Abraham, ten generations from Adam to Noah, and ten generations from Noah to Abraham – the Avotah chapter 36. They developed from this a dating system. This Mosaic dating system of Israel is given in Leviticus 26:13-16, and they Messianically applied it in the Talmud. Moses dated the Messiah's exit in A.D. 33 – Midrash Bresheit , Rabbah on Genesis, p. 24b of the Warsaw Edition. Their own dating system says that the Messiah had to exit in 33 A.D.

The Talmud states that the Temple's destruction in 70 A.D. was predicted by Daniel 9:24-27. When you get into arguing with rabbis about the weeks of Daniel and what they mean – I have not the space to explain it now – the easiest thing to say is that Daniel 9 says that the Messiah had to come and die before the second Temple was destroyed. "No, it doesn't", they will tell you, but Yalkut Volume II p. 79d says it does, and so does Nazir 32b. The Talmud states that the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. was predicted by Daniel 9:24-27, when the coming of the Messiah to be cut off was predicted to precede this destruction. So the Messiah was predicted to arrive and to be killed before 70 A.D., according to the Talmud – and the Rabbis knew this.

The following is a link to the entire article. If the link doesn't work, you can google Jesus in the Talmud by Jacob Prasch.

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-3bzOkLi ... d_djvu.txt

I can't find how the writer derived at these statements based on the texts that he cites. I don't know what the Warsaw Edition is, and I tried to look at Yalkut Volume II can could not find anything. I also looked at Nazir 32b but it just says that the temple would be destroyed per Daniels dating but doesn't seem to say anything specifc about the messiah.

With regard to the prior paragraph, again, I can't find this Warsaw edition--but I am wondering if this isn't some sort of reference to the supposed 77 generations from Adam-- and how those supposedly calculated to Jesus time. It is even alleged that Luke specifically makes sure he uses 77 generations to fulfill this timeline. What does everybody think? Since I don't know how to look up the source of this statement, I have to guess.

The next batch of questions I have comes from another website:


http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/messiah/messiah.htm


The area I need help on is this:


Additional confirmation of the messianic overtones of Daniel 9:25-27 comes from the Talmud itself:

"In Daniel is delivered to us the end ['the time of His appearance and death' - Rabbi Jarchi] of the Messiah." The Talmud also records that about the time of the Roman general Titus' destruction of the Temple (70 A. D.), the Messiah was believed to have already come, yet His identity was concealed from the Jews until they were rendered more worthy of His appearance!" (Frank Delitzch and Paton Gloag, The Messiahship of Christ / The Messianic Prophecies of Christ [Minneapolis, MN; Klock & Klock, 1983 rpt.], pt. 2, p. 226)

Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi stated: "I have examined the Holy Scriptures, and have not found the time for the coming of the Messiah, clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the ninth chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."

Rabbi Azariah states in the words of Daniel: "To seal the vision and prophecy, and to bring in Messiah our righteousness."

Rabbi Nachmonides claims: "This Holy of Holies is the Messiah who is sanctified more than the sons of David."

Finally, in the words of Jonathan ben Uzziel: "That the 'vision and prophecy' may be fulfilled even unto Messiah, the Holy of the Holies."

This again strengthens the case for the Messiahship of Jesus since He is the only person that both claimed to be the suffering Messiah that was to die and who appeared before the year 70 AD.

In fact Rabbi Nehumias, who lived 50 years before Christ, is cited as saying that the time given by Daniel for the Messiah's appearance could not go beyond fifty years! (Ibid.)
LOOK: Another amazing fact is that the Talmud admits that forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple, God refused to accept the high priestly sacrifices:

"Our Rabbis taught that throughout the forty years that Shim'on the Tzaddik served ... the scarlet cloth would become white. From then on it would sometimes become white and sometimes not ... Throughout the last forty years, before the Temple was destroyed ... the scarlet cloth never turned white." (Yoma 39a-39b)


I know that the Yoma stuff has already been addressed in some other threads, but again there are some allegations being made in which I am unable to locate the source material, particularily the first line-- where supposedly the messiah was to come prior to 70ad, but was concealed according to the Talmud. Anybody know where this reference is?

Does anybody know anything about the Warsaw Talmud? Does it have different information than the other Talmuds? Is that why it is quoted by Christians?

I know that some of these very same issues came up in the Disputes of Barcelona and others-- and the Jews did not believe that Jesus was the messiah, but there are some confusing writings in the Talmud.

Any positive help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Kris
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 5:48 am

Re: Talmud and Messianc Texts vs Christian Sites

Post by Kris »

My post doesn't seem to be getting a lot of bites. Is anyone at least familiar with this supposed dating system used by Moses-- 10 generations from Adam to Abraham, and then ten more from Abraham to Noah, etc.? Perhaps this could be a part of the reason that Messianism was prevalent around this time-- even Josephus mentioned calculations. This could be Daniel, part of Elijahs 77 generations, or perhaps this? Here's to hoping that somebody knows something!!
ficino
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Re: Talmud and Messianc Texts vs Christian Sites

Post by ficino »

Hi Kris. I don't know about all this, but I do know that the Midrash B'reshit Rabba is not part of the Talmud. The Midrashim are generally considered a bit older. They are commentaries on various parts of the Pentateuch, mostly. I also don't know what the Warsaw edition of that Midrash is. The Soncino Press, which you may know published English translations of the Talmud, also published an English translation of B'reshit Rabba. I've used it in a library. There is an online version, but you'll have to play around to see if you can get the volume that you need, since the thing is in 10 volumes:

https://archive.org/stream/RabbaGenesis ... p_djvu.txt

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that the site you quote is not referring to any Warsaw Talmud. It may be an edition of the Midrash that was published in Warsaw or based on a manuscript located in Warsaw.

I guess Stephan is not on here anymore. He would know.
ficino
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Re: Talmud and Messianc Texts vs Christian Sites

Post by ficino »

I presume you have access to tractates of the Talmud. Just in case you need it, here's a good place for English translations of the Bavli:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/tcontents.html
ficino
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Re: Talmud and Messianc Texts vs Christian Sites

Post by ficino »

Anyway, as we've debated before, Daniel seems a mess to me. chapter 9 says that seven weeks and sixty two weeks are decreed. After the sixty two weeks, the messiah will be cut off. So according to that, shouldn't the messiah have been killed in 63 A.D. or thereabouts?
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rakovsky
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Re: Talmud and Messianc Texts vs Christian Sites

Post by rakovsky »

Kris wrote:I am really trying to understand a couple of Christian sites that want to allege that there were various scriptures in the Talmud that seemed to indicate that the Jews knew that that messiah had come, or should have come around Jesus' time.
Both the pagan Suetonius and Jewish Josephus noted very briefly in the 1st to 2nd c. Ad. that the first c.Jews were in strong expectation of a Messiah based on past prophecies. They were probably referring to Daniel 9.
The first site states the following:

Jesus In The Talmud


In the Talmud it is noted that God has made various numbers significant in His plan: they noted that there were ten names for idols and prophets, ten trials of Abraham, ten generations from Adam to Noah, and ten generations from Noah to Abraham – the Avotah chapter 36. They developed from this a dating system. This Mosaic dating system of Israel is given in Leviticus 26:13-16, and they Messianically applied it in the Talmud. Moses dated the Messiah's exit in A.D. 33 – Midrash Bresheit , Rabbah on Genesis, p. 24b of the Warsaw Edition. Their own dating system says that the Messiah had to exit in 33 A.D.

The Talmud states that the Temple's destruction in 70 A.D. was predicted by Daniel 9:24-27. When you get into arguing with rabbis about the weeks of Daniel and what they mean – I have not the space to explain it now – the easiest thing to say is that Daniel 9 says that the Messiah had to come and die before the second Temple was destroyed. "No, it doesn't", they will tell you, but Yalkut Volume II p. 79d says it does, and so does Nazir 32b. The Talmud states that the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. was predicted by Daniel 9:24-27, when the coming of the Messiah to be cut off was predicted to precede this destruction. So the Messiah was predicted to arrive and to be killed before 70 A.D., according to the Talmud – and the Rabbis knew this.

The following is a link to the entire article. If the link doesn't work, you can google Jesus in the Talmud by Jacob Prasch.

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-3bzOkLi ... d_djvu.txt

I can't find how the writer derived at these statements based on the texts that he cites. I don't know what the Warsaw Edition is, and I tried to look at Yalkut Volume II can could not find anything. I also looked at Nazir 32b but it just says that the temple would be destroyed per Daniels dating but doesn't seem to say anything specifc about the messiah.

With regard to the prior paragraph, again, I can't find this Warsaw edition--but I am wondering if this isn't some sort of reference to the supposed 77 generations from Adam-- and how those supposedly calculated to Jesus time. It is even alleged that Luke specifically makes sure he uses 77 generations to fulfill this timeline. What does everybody think? Since I don't know how to look up the source of this statement, I have to guess.
I invite you to email the publisher where you got this from, because like you I prefer to see the quote.
But I imagine that they are referring to Jewish oral traditions about Daniel 9 as messianic and that the traditions don't specify 33 ad, this is just your writer's own view of the date in Daniel 9.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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rakovsky
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Re: Talmud and Messianc Texts vs Christian Sites

Post by rakovsky »

ficino wrote:Anyway, as we've debated before, Daniel seems a mess to me. chapter 9 says that seven weeks and sixty two weeks are decreed. After the sixty two weeks, the messiah will be cut off. So according to that, shouldn't the messiah have been killed in 63 A.D. or thereabouts?
No because it does not actually state that the temple will be destroyed 7 years after the messiah's death.
All it says is that 70 Weeks of years after the decree to rebuild the temple, the messiah will come and at a later point the temple gets desolated.

First thing is you need to quote the date of the decree when that 7 70 countdown starts.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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