The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Giuseppe »

About
“born of a woman, born under the Law,”
“of the seed of David according to the flesh,” (etc.)
I remember that Philo has introduced already an allegorical reading of the term 'sons of David':
And I also admire the things which are spoken under divine inspiration in the books of Kings, according to which those who flourished many generations afterwards and lived in a blameless manner, are spoken of as the sons of David who wrote hymns to God; {44}{2 Ezr. 8:2.} though, during his lifetime, even their great grandfathers had not yet been born. The truth is, that the birth here spoken of is that of souls made immortal by their virtues, not of perishable bodies, and this birth is naturally referred to the leaders of virtue, as its parents and progenitors.
(On the confusion of tongues, 28:146-148)
The logic of Philo - or of ''Paul'' - is that:

1) this birth [from David] is naturally referred to the leaders of virtue.
2) the Archangel/Logos of Philo, already named 'Jesus' (via Carrier's proof of this I presume you know already), represents the maximum of moral perfection, etc.
3) therefore: the Archangel Jesus is the son of David par excellence, too.


About the clash Carrier versus McGrath, even If I deny a priori McGrath's ''criticisms'' as mere apologetic, though I think that Carrier's position, by appealing to a historical Paul (+ authentic letters of 'Paul'), becomes by definition a dogmatic, and therefore unfalsifiable, position.

The problem is intrinsic in ''Paul'''s letters, that are evidently silent about a HJ, but at the same time seem aware of a Gospel Jesus - and yes: the 2 Jesuses are not the same thing.
See Hebrews, for example. It's clearly dependent on Matthew, and yet it's defined rightly by Carrier as a ''proof-text'' of mythicism. ''Paul'''s letters are a just mix of dogmatism and ambiguity that serves anyone exactly in order to assert his position (even the most irrational) against the opponent's positions. They worked and work today as ''Ring of Power'' of Tolkienian memory: They give reason (= power) to every guy that interprets them in his own way.


I think that Carrier and McGrath are the ''human guinea pigs'' to re-built in the lab (with all the defects of each simulation) the ancient clash on epistles that opposed the heretics to protocatholics (even if docetism not corresponds, strictly speaking, to mythicism).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by MrMacSon »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ... I think that ... Paul had an 'also human' - but first and foremost divine - Jesus view.
I think a human-Jesus in the Pauline texts could well be due to later redaction
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toejam
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by toejam »

MrMacSon wrote:I think a human-Jesus in the Pauline texts could well be due to later redaction
Maybe. But the evidence for that is pretty thin on the ground. So you admit that there are seemingly human-Jesus references in the texts as they stand now?
My study list: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bignell/judeo-christian-origins-bibliography/851830651507208
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by MrMacSon »

I think all references to Jesus in the Pauline texts stand a reasonable chance of being later redactions (to align them with the Synoptics as the Canon was being put together)
Michael BG
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Michael BG »

Thank you Ben C. Smith and DCHindley. I tried yesterday and couldn’t get Perseus to work for me, but today it seems to work and I bookmarked the page.
MrMacSon wrote:I think all references to Jesus in the Pauline texts stand a reasonable chance of being later redactions (to align them with the Synoptics as the Canon was being put together)
Can you present a case to try to convince me that 1 Cor 9:5 is an interpolation or do you not see this a reference to a human Jesus?
Bernard Muller
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Bernard Muller »

One of the big "examples" is how McGrath criticizes criteria one-by-one, instead of dealing with them as a cluster where all of them together are conclusive.

But mythicists do that on historicist pieces of evidence, one-by-one, instead of dealing with them as a cluster where all of them together are conclusive.
At this point... the subject itself is left behind in the dust... all that is left, is a war of words. Yikes.
A favorite strategy of some prominent mythicists (Doherty, Carrier, Murdoch) and others, in order to defend their very debatable, far-fetched, ill-evidenced & dubious hypotheses, is to bombard their opponents with offensive, insulting, personal attacks, sometimes backed up by vulgar strong words (such as f...) and ask them to get lost (I certainly experienced that myself). Maybe, that's the best approach Carrier can find (who probably learned that from Doherty).
His angry & hateful attitude against his opponents may be a ploy in order to discourage any other criticisms.
And if a normal guy attempts to reason with a bully, and even putting forward good arguments, the bully is going to prevails because of hard insulting & demeaning language.

 
“born of a woman, born under the Law,” “of the seed of David according to the flesh,”
I am now firm on this, myself--either these two things are interpolations, or the author of these letters had a 'truly human' Jesus view. I don't consider Doherty's interpretation of these statements to be plausible.

They are other items in the Pauline epistles which entails Jesus had been a human being on earth: http://historical-jesus.info/6.html

 
Carrier is mentally unbalanced. That's the unfortunate part of all of this. He's the worst standard-bearer that 'mythicism' could have asked for.
His changes of mood can even be observed on OHJ, sometimes mild & balanced, other times fanatical.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by MrMacSon »

Michael BG wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:I think all references to Jesus in the Pauline texts stand a reasonable chance of being later redactions (to align them with the Synoptics as the Canon was being put together)
Can you present a case to try to convince me that 1 Cor 9:5 is an interpolation or do you not see this a reference to a human Jesus?
I see 1 Cor 9:5 as a reference to Paul and his peers -

1 Cor 9:1-12 (KVJ)
1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,

4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?

7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
Michael BG
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Michael BG »

MrMacSon wrote:
Michael BG wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:I think all references to Jesus in the Pauline texts stand a reasonable chance of being later redactions (to align them with the Synoptics as the Canon was being put together)
Can you present a case to try to convince me that 1 Cor 9:5 is an interpolation or do you not see this a reference to a human Jesus?
I see 1 Cor 9:5 as a reference to Paul and his peers -

1 Cor 9:1-12 (KVJ)
1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
...
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
...
The King James Version is not generally considered a good translation of the Greek.

For example the Greek in verse 1 can be translated as:
“Not I-am free Not I-am (an) apostle. Not Jesus the Lord of-us I-have-seen, not the work of-my you are in Lord”

(Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?)

Verse 5
“Not we-are-having right (αδελφην) sister wife to-be-leading-about as even the rest apostles and the (αδελφοι) brothers of-the Lord and Cephas”

(Have we not (the) right to be taking around (a) sister (as a) wife, even as the rest (of the) apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas)

To translate αδελφοι as brethren assumes that is what is meant. It should be translated as brothers and the context will define it. The word αδελφην is translated as sister, but it is often seen as sister in the faith, but to describe the apostles and Cephas as not brothers in the faith seems unlikely to me and therefore "brothers of the Lord" are biological brothers of Jesus.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by MrMacSon »

Michael BG wrote: The King James Version is not generally considered a good translation of the Greek.
ah, ok. Is another English version considered better translation of the Greek?
Michael BG
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Michael BG »

MrMacSon wrote:
Michael BG wrote: The King James Version is not generally considered a good translation of the Greek.
ah, ok. Is another English version considered better translation of the Greek?
The Revised Standard Version (RSV) is considered by many to be a good translation and is the one I use most of the time.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/browse.html
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