The gospel of Thomas.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The gospel of Thomas.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:54 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:37 am
MrMacSon wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:21 am
Wait? :o What? :? Philo? (I presume a passage in there matches a saying in G.Thomas)
Ha ha. Yes. Notice that the Philo quotation is not on its own; it is an addendum to the one from Hippolytus, who explicitly attributes a saying which is similar to (not identical to!) Thomas 4 to the gospel of Thomas, after which he says that the saying really comes from Hippocrates. I gave the Philo quotation because Philo is citing Hippocrates for a saying which may be the one that Hipplytus has in mind. I have been unable thus far to track down anything in Hippocrates' extant works which matches, except that some of the sayings at the end of chapter 3 of the Aphorisms at least seem relevant.
I went ahead and added that passage, since I had not updated the thread since finding the possible parallel. Not sure it is what either Philo or Hippolytus had in mind, but there it is; let people decide for themselves.

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mlinssen
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Re: The gospel of Thomas.

Post by mlinssen » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:58 am

I have, lately, downloaded all 45 works by Philo, and am categorising whatever Thomas could have drawn from. But I'm satisfied that I've found his great inspiration although he doesn't quite agree with Philo, on the contrary

I still could be wrong of course

Wrt the saying about the 7 years intervals: none of that complicated scheming in Thomas, he's nor about inducting in a given hierarchy for World creation, order, or any other silly business that is so striking of Gnosticism

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MrMacSon
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Re: The gospel of Thomas.

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:47 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:37 am
MrMacSon wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:21 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:49 pm

Notes and Quotes

.
Context and Textual Parallels

Commentary: Refer to links saying by saying.
Attestation

Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies 5.7.20-21: Οὐ μόνον <δὲ> αὑτῶν ἐπιμαρτυρεῖν φασι [οἱ Ναασσηνοὶ] τῷ λόγῳ τὰ Ἀσσυρίων μυστήρια καὶ Φρυγῶν, <ἀλλὰ καὶ τὰ Αἰγυπτίων> περὶ τὴν τῶν γεγονότων καὶ γινομένων καὶ ἐσομένων ἔτι μακαρίαν κρυβομένην ὁμοῦ καὶ φανερουμένην φύσιν, ἥνπερ φασὶν <τὴν> ἐντὸς ἀνθρώπου βασιλείαν <τῶν> οὐρανῶν ζητουμένην. περὶ ἧς διαρρήδην ἐν τῷ κατὰ Θωμᾶν ἐπιγραφομένῳ εὐαγγελίῳ παραδιδόασι λέγοντες οὕτως· «ἐμὲ ὁ ζητῶν εὑρήσει ἐν παιδίοις ἀπὸ ἐτῶν ἐπτά· ἐκεῖ γὰρ ἐν τῷ τεσσαρεσκαιδεκάτῳ αἰῶνι κρυβόμενος φανεροῦμαι». τοῦτο δὲ οὐκ ἔστιν Χριστοῦ, ἀλλὰ Ἱπποκράτους λέγοντος «ἑπτὰ ἐτῶν παῖς πατρὸς ἥμισυ»· ὅθεν οὗτοι, τὴν ἀρχέγονον φύσιν τῶν ὅλων ἐν ἀρχεγόνῳ τιθέμενοι σπέρματι, τὸ Ἱπποκράτειον ἀκηκοότες ὅτι ἐστὶν ἥμισυ πατρὸς παιδίον ἑπτὰ ἐτῶν, ἐν τοῖς τέσσαρσι <καὶ δέκα> φασὶν ἔτεσι, κατὰ τὸν Θωμᾶν, εἶναι φανερούμενον. / But [the Naassenes] assert that not only is there in favour of their doctrine, testimony to be drawn from the mysteries of the Assyrians, but also from those of the Phrygians concerning the happy nature— concealed, and yet at the same time disclosed— of things that have been, and are coming into existence, and moreover will be—(a happy nature) which, (the Naassene) says, is the kingdom of heaven to be sought for within a man. And concerning this (nature) they hand down an explicit passage, occurring in the Gospel inscribed according to Thomas, expressing themselves thus: He who seeks me, will find me in children from seven years old; for there concealed, I shall in the fourteenth age be made manifest. This, however, is not (the teaching) of Christ, but of Hippocrates, who uses these words: A child of seven years is half of a father. And so it is that these (heretics), placing the originative nature of the universe in causative seed, (and) having ascertained the (aphorism) of Hippocrates, that a child of seven years old is half of a father, say that in fourteen years, according to Thomas, he is manifested

Philo, On the Creation of the World 36.105: 105 Ὁ μὲν οὖν Σόλων ἑβδομάσι δέκα ταῖς εἰρημέναις καταριθμεῖ τὸν ἀνθρώπινον βίον. ὁ δ' ἰατρὸς Ἱπποκράτης ἡλικίας ἑπτὰ εἶναί φησι, παιδίου, παιδός, μειρακίου, νεανίσκου, ἀνδρός, πρεσβύτου, γέροντος, ταύτας δὲ μετρεῖσθαι μὲν ἑβδομάσιν, οὐ μὴν ταῖς κατὰ τὸ ἑξῆς. λέγει δ' οὕτως· “Ἐν ἀνθρώπου φύσει ἑπτά εἰσιν ὧραι, ἃς ἡλικίας καλέουσι, παιδίον, παῖς, μειράκιον, νεανίσκος, ἀνήρ, πρεσβύτης, γέρων· καὶ παιδίον μέν ἐστιν ἄχρις ἑπτὰ ἐτέων ὀδόντων ἐκβολῆς· παῖς δ' ἄχρι γονῆς ἐκφύσιος, ἐς τὰ δὶς ἑπτά· μειράκιον δ' ἄχρι γενείου λαχνώσιος, ἐς τὰ τρὶς ἑπτά· νεανίσκος δ' ἄχρις αὐξήσιος ὅλου τοῦ σώματος, ἐς τὰ τετράκις ἑπτά· ἀνὴρ δ' ἄχρις ἑνὸς δέοντος ἐτέων πεντήκοντα, ἐς τὰ ἑπτάκις ἑπτά· πρεσβύτης δ' ἄχρι πεντήκοντα ἕξ, ἐς τὰ ἑπτάκις ὀκτώ· τὸ δ' ἐντεῦθεν γέρων.” / 105 Solon therefore thus computes the life of man by the aforesaid ten periods of seven years. But Hippocrates the physician says that there are seven ages of man: infancy, childhood, boyhood, youth, manhood, middle age, old age; and that these too, are measured by periods of seven, though not in the same order. And he speaks thus: In the nature of man there are seven seasons, which men call ages; infancy, childhood, boyhood, and the rest. He is an infant till he reaches his seventh year, the age of the shedding of his teeth. He is a child till he arrives at the age of puberty, which takes place in fourteen years. He is a boy till his beard begins to grow, and that time is the end of a third period of seven years. He is a youth till the completion of the growth of his whole body, which coincides with the fourth seven years. Then he is a man till he reaches his forty-ninth year, or seven times seven periods. He is a middle aged man till he is fifty-six, or eight times seven years old; and after that he is an old man.

Wait? :o What? :? Philo? (I presume a passage in there matches a saying in G.Thomas)
Ha ha. Yes ... Hippolytus...explicitly attributes a saying which is similar to (not identical to!) Thomas 4 to the gospel of Thomas, after which he says that the saying really comes from Hippocrates. I gave the Philo quotation because Philo is citing Hippocrates for a saying which may be the one that Hipplytus has in mind. I have been unable thus far to track down anything in Hippocrates' extant works which matches, except that some of the sayings at the end of chapter 3 of the Aphorisms at least seem relevant.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:54 am
I went ahead and added that passage, since I had not updated the thread since finding the possible parallel. Not sure it is what either Philo or Hippolytus had in mind, but there it is; let people decide for themselves.
Aha! Cheers.

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MrMacSon
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Re: The gospel of Thomas.

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:03 pm

mlinssen wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:58 am

I have, lately, downloaded all 45 works by Philo, and am categorising whatever Thomas could have drawn from. I'm satisfied that I've found his great inspiration although he doesn't quite agree with Philo, on the contrary

I still could be wrong of course

Wrt the saying about the 7 years intervals: none of that complicated scheming in Thomas, he's nor about inducting in a given hierarchy for World creation, order, or any other silly business that is so striking of Gnosticism
Good to hear you're looking at Philo in light of what you've inducted/deducted about Thomas, and in light of what Stevan L. Davies, Marvin Meyers, Funk and - and no doubt others - have looked at and said in relation to Philo and Thomas. I can imagine the nature of Thomas you've uncovered wouldn't quite agree with Philo, but it will be interesting to see what you've found.

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