The Didache.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The Didache.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:46 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:The ending to the Didache (and thus to the apocalyptic section of chapter 16) has been lost in Codex Hierosolymitanus:

16.6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead 7 -- not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him; 8 then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven....

But both sermon XV (De Abrenuntiatione in Baptismate) of Pseudo-Boniface and its sibling text in Codex Palatinus Latinus 485 offer parallels to the Didache, ending as follows:

Believe in the advent of Christ, the resurrection of the body, and the judgment of all men. For then the impious shall be separated from the just, the one for the everlasting fire, the others for the eternal life. Then begins a life with God without death, a light without shadows, a health without sickness, a plenty without hunger, a happiness without fear, a joy with no misgivings. Then comes the eternal glory, in which the just shall shine like suns, for no eye has ever seen, no ear has ever heard, no heart has ever dreamed, of all that which God has prepared for those whom he loves.

This is a possible ending to the Didache; if so, it is also possible that the final line, "no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has dreamed of all that God has prepared for those whom he loves," was a very early part of Christian didactic materials, and was actually quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2.9 (where he specifically says he is quoting something).

Ben.
Did you mean to say that that Paul may have quoted the Didache? Or perhaps quoted something much like it, at least in this part, such as a common source?
Yes, I mean to say that Paul may have quoted either the Didache or something that eventually became incorporated into the Didache (before the ending was lost).
From the standpoint of my own POV*, it seems that 2:9a is a quote, with 2:9b being an aside to the quote, and these two represent a unit.

IMHO, 2:9a-b do not seem to relate well to my proposed interpolations, but does seem related to, but not essential to, the text in the preceding column. So 2:9a-b could well be original to "Paul", or just as easily could be a gloss by a copyist.
Garrow makes an interesting case for the saying to have originated with the Didache. Basically, the three parts of it (eyes not seeing, ears not hearing, heart not dreaming) seem to line up with the three signs of the end time (visual expansion of heaven, aural sound of the trumpet, and hoped-for resurrection of the dead).

Ben.
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Re: The Didache.

Post by DCHindley » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:56 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
DCH wrote:Did you mean to say that that Paul may have quoted the Didache? Or perhaps quoted something much like it, at least in this part, such as a common source?
Yes, I mean to say that Paul may have quoted either the Didache or something that eventually became incorporated into the Didache (before the ending was lost).
It would seem to me that the Didache, as we have it, could not have been in existence at the same general period as Paul. I am not very convinced by those Didache scholars who see a period after Jesus' death when there was a period when itinerants prevailed, gradually to be absorbed into established villages by those who enjoyed their entertainment filled prophesies and message of universal love (I get goosebumps thinking of it). Even if it is allowed into argument. I'd think that sort of text wouldn't have developed overnight. Then there's the pesky Judean rebellion in 66+ CE that surely had at least as much influence on those inhabiting far away Galilee as any absorption of itinerants by villagers out of pity for them.
Ben wrote:
DCH wrote:From the standpoint of my own POV*, it seems that 2:9a is a quote, with 2:9b being an aside to the quote, and these two represent a unit.

IMHO, 2:9a-b do not seem to relate well to my proposed interpolations, but does seem related to, but not essential to, the text in the preceding column. So 2:9a-b could well be original to "Paul", or just as easily could be a gloss by a copyist.
Garrow makes an interesting case for the saying to have originated with the Didache. Basically, the three parts of it (eyes not seeing, ears not hearing, heart not dreaming) seem to line up with the three signs of the end time (visual expansion of heaven, aural sound of the trumpet, and hoped-for resurrection of the dead).
The eye seeing and ear hearing of 2:9:

2:9a ἀλλὰ καθὼς γέγραπται· ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδεν καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσεν (Isa 64:3 OG; 2:9; 52:15?)
2:9a But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard," (Isa 64:4 RSV; 52:15?)

seem to me to be from Isaiah 64.3 Old Greek/63:4 Mass. Text:

(BGT Isa 64:3) ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος οὐκ ἠκούσαμεν οὐδὲ
LXA Isa 64:4) From of old we have not heard,

οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ἡμῶν εἶδον
neither have our eyes seen

θεὸν πλὴν σοῦ καὶ τὰ ἔργα σου ἃ ποιήσεις τοῖς ὑπομένουσιν ἔλεον
a God beside thee, and thy works which thou wilt perform to them that wait for mercy.

There is nothing there corresponding to the hearts of men conceiving anything.

Another pericope from Isa 52:15 is often presented:

(Isa 52:15 LXE) Thus shall many nations wonder at him;
(Isa 52:15 BGT) οὕτως θαυμάσονται ἔθνη πολλὰ ἐπ᾽ αὐτῷ

and kings shall keep their mouths shut:
καὶ συνέξουσιν βασιλεῖς τὸ στόμα αὐτῶν

for to whom no report was brought concerning him, shall see;
ὅτι οἷς οὐκ ἀνηγγέλη περὶ αὐτοῦ ὄψονται

and they who have not heard, shall consider.
καὶ οἳοὐκ ἀκηκόασιν συνήσουσιν

This just does not seem to be the same stuff as what is being referred to in 1 Cor 2:9.

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

John2
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Re: The Didache.

Post by John2 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:27 pm

Hegesippus says (in Photius' Bibliotheca cod. 232 and perhaps in the context of discussing 1 Clement) that the saying "no eye has seen, no ear has heard" is wrong because it doesn't match Mt. 13:16:

"However Hegesippus, one of the ancients, a contemporary of the apostles, in the third book of his Commentaries, in I do not know what context, says that these are empty words and that those who say them are liars since the Holy Scriptures say, 'Blessed are your eyes because they see and happy your ears because they hear,' etc."

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/photi ... otheca.htm

http://biblehub.com/matthew/13-16.htm
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Re: The Didache.

Post by John2 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:51 pm

I don't think Paul or 1 Clement are referring to Mt. 13:16 though. It does sound more like Isaiah 64:4, and 1 Cor. 2:9 says,
"However, as it is written," and 1 Clement (34:6-8) appears to be citing Isaiah:

"For the scripture saith, Ten thousand times ten thousand stood beside him, and thousands of thousands served him; and they cried, Holy, holy, holy Lord of Sabaoth! all creation is full of his glory. And let us, being gathered together in harmony and a good conscience, cry earnestly, as it were with one mouth, unto him, that we may become partakers of his great and glorious promises; for he saith, Eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, neither hath there entered into the heart of man, what things he hath prepared for them that wait for him."
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Re: The Didache.

Post by John2 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:26 pm

Ben wrote:

"Yes, I mean to say that Paul may have quoted either the Didache or something that eventually became incorporated into the Didache (before the ending was lost)."

But 1 Cor. 2:9 says "as it is written," and when Paul says this elsewhere he seems to mean the OT.

http://biblehub.net/searchepistles.php?q=written
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Re: The Didache.

Post by John2 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:39 pm

DCH wrote:

"It would seem to me that the Didache, as we have it, could not have been in existence at the same general period as Paul."

I agree. And the Didache has always struck me as Jewish Christian (and anti-Pauline), and it would seem odd if it shared this quote with Paul or 1 Clement.

https://books.google.com/books?id=CkRmO ... ul&f=false
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Re: The Didache.

Post by John2 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:49 pm

And Hegesippus was a Jewish Christian, and even if he was wrong about the source of the expression "no eye has seen," he says "that these are empty words and that those who say them are liars."
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Re: The Didache.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:35 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
DCH wrote:Did you mean to say that that Paul may have quoted the Didache? Or perhaps quoted something much like it, at least in this part, such as a common source?
Yes, I mean to say that Paul may have quoted either the Didache or something that eventually became incorporated into the Didache (before the ending was lost).
It would seem to me that the Didache, as we have it, could not have been in existence at the same general period as Paul. I am not very convinced by those Didache scholars who see a period after Jesus' death when there was a period when itinerants prevailed, gradually to be absorbed into established villages by those who enjoyed their entertainment filled prophesies and message of universal love (I get goosebumps thinking of it).
You and I may have very different ideas about what it would take for the Didache to be an early text. I am not even assuming Jesus' existence here, though I would of course allow for it. I definitely think there were itinerant preachers in early Christianity, but not (just) because of the Didache, and not necessarily preaching the hippie gospel you may be imagining, to judge by how you described it above.
Even if it is allowed into argument. I'd think that sort of text wouldn't have developed overnight. Then there's the pesky Judean rebellion in 66+ CE that surely had at least as much influence on those inhabiting far away Galilee as any absorption of itinerants by villagers out of pity for them.
No, I think there are layers upon layers in the Didache. Certainly not an overnight thing.
The eye seeing and ear hearing of 2:9:

2:9a ἀλλὰ καθὼς γέγραπται· ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδεν καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσεν (Isa 64:3 OG; 2:9; 52:15?)
2:9a But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard," (Isa 64:4 RSV; 52:15?)

seem to me to be from Isaiah 64.3 Old Greek/63:4 Mass. Text:

(BGT Isa 64:3) ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος οὐκ ἠκούσαμεν οὐδὲ
LXA Isa 64:4) From of old we have not heard,

οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ἡμῶν εἶδον
neither have our eyes seen

θεὸν πλὴν σοῦ καὶ τὰ ἔργα σου ἃ ποιήσεις τοῖς ὑπομένουσιν ἔλεον
a God beside thee, and thy works which thou wilt perform to them that wait for mercy.

There is nothing there corresponding to the hearts of men conceiving anything.

Another pericope from Isa 52:15 is often presented:

(Isa 52:15 LXE) Thus shall many nations wonder at him;
(Isa 52:15 BGT) οὕτως θαυμάσονται ἔθνη πολλὰ ἐπ᾽ αὐτῷ

and kings shall keep their mouths shut:
καὶ συνέξουσιν βασιλεῖς τὸ στόμα αὐτῶν

for to whom no report was brought concerning him, shall see;
ὅτι οἷς οὐκ ἀνηγγέλη περὶ αὐτοῦ ὄψονται

and they who have not heard, shall consider.
καὶ οἳοὐκ ἀκηκόασιν συνήσουσιν

This just does not seem to be the same stuff as what is being referred to in 1 Cor 2:9.
Well, I quite agree. That is rather my point. Paul quotes something that is similar to something in Isaiah, but not actually in Isaiah. What could it be?

Ben.
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Re: The Didache.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:36 pm

John2 wrote:But 1 Cor. 2:9 says "as it is written," and when Paul says this elsewhere he seems to mean the OT.
Sure, but in this case the resemblance to the OT is only partial. It bears explaining.
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Re: The Didache.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:40 pm

John2 wrote:And the Didache has always struck me as Jewish Christian (and anti-Pauline), and it would seem odd if it shared this quote with Paul or 1 Clement.

https://books.google.com/books?id=CkRmO ... ul&f=false
The Didache is, I agree, Jewish-Christian. Where I probably disagree is on your parenthetical comment; I do not see why Jewish Christianity has to be anti-Pauline. If (the relevant portions of) it preceded Paul, then it would be no more anti-Pauline than Isaiah or Malachi is. Paul quotes from Jewish texts, so why not from a Jewish-Christian text?

I can see where it might be odd for the Didache to be taking after Paul. But for Paul to be taking after the Didache (or its predecessors) seems perfectly natural to me.
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