The Didache.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 6156
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: The Didache.

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:26 pm

andrewcriddle wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:
  • Do we have a list of those 2nd or 3rd century people who 'knew' the Didache?

    +/or lists of (ii) those who didn't know it; or (iii) may have known it?
Clement of Alexandria in http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02101.htm says
It is such an one that is by Scripture called a thief. It is therefore said, Son, be not a liar; for falsehood leads to theft.

see Didache 3 My child, be not a liar, since a lie leads to theft.


Origen says http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04123.htm
And therefore holy Scripture teaches us to receive all that happens as sent by God, knowing that without Him no event occurs.

see Didache 3 Accept whatever happens to you as good, knowing that apart from God nothing comes to pass.


Andrew Criddle
Cheers, Andrew.

John2
Posts: 3326
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Didache.

Post by John2 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:23 am

As I go down the list of Paul's citations of the OT to compare with his citation of Isaiah in 1 Cor. 2:9 I see that Rom. 3:10-18 appears to do something similar:

"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.' 'Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.' 'The poison of vipers is on their lips.' 'Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.' 'Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.' 'There is no fear of God before their eyes.'"

http://biblehub.com/niv/romans/3.htm

Commentators note:

"As it is written; viz. in several places of Scripture, which he quotes in the following verses, giving us the sense, though not so strictly tying himself to the words."

"These texts are from various unconnected passages of the Old Testament, quoted from the LXX., though not all accurately. They seem to be put together from memory..."

"The quotations themselves are taken from various parts of the O.T. without distinction; no indication is given when the writer passes from one book to another. Thus Romans 3:10-12 are from Psalm 14:1-3; Romans 3:13 gives the LXX of Psalm 5:9; Romans 3:14 corresponds best to Psalm 10:7; in Romans 3:15-17 there is a condensation of Isaiah 59:7 f.; and in Romans 3:18 we have part of the first verse of Psalms 36."

"...the words are not always literally expressed, but the sense is attended to..."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The Didache.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:29 am

John2 wrote:As I go down the list of Paul's citations of the OT to compare with his citation of Isaiah in 1 Cor. 2:9 I see that Rom. 3:10-18 appears to do something similar:

"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.' 'Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.' 'The poison of vipers is on their lips.' 'Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.' 'Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.' 'There is no fear of God before their eyes.'"

http://biblehub.com/niv/romans/3.htm

Commentators note:

"As it is written; viz. in several places of Scripture, which he quotes in the following verses, giving us the sense, though not so strictly tying himself to the words."

"These texts are from various unconnected passages of the Old Testament, quoted from the LXX., though not all accurately. They seem to be put together from memory..."

"The quotations themselves are taken from various parts of the O.T. without distinction; no indication is given when the writer passes from one book to another. Thus Romans 3:10-12 are from Psalm 14:1-3; Romans 3:13 gives the LXX of Psalm 5:9; Romans 3:14 corresponds best to Psalm 10:7; in Romans 3:15-17 there is a condensation of Isaiah 59:7 f.; and in Romans 3:18 we have part of the first verse of Psalms 36."

"...the words are not always literally expressed, but the sense is attended to..."
Good one. I may take a look when I get the time.

Strictly speaking, the unmarked passing from one scripture to another is not an issue for me, either here or in 1 Corinthians 2.9; that happens quite a bit. The splicing of one quote inside another that we find in 1 Corinthians 2.9 seems a bit odd, though, and of course we have talked about how very periphrastic it is. It will be interesting to see how similar the Romans catena is.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

John2
Posts: 3326
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Didache.

Post by John2 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:00 am

This alone makes it hard for me to believe that Paul is citing the Didache in 1 Cor. 2:9 because his citations aren't typically this accurate.

I've also been looking at the context of 1 Cor. 2:9 and I notice that Paul first says that his knowledge of Jesus did not come from human wisdom:

"When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Cor. 2:1-2).

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power" (1 Cor. 2:4-5).

"No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor. 2:7-8).

"However, as it is written..." (1 Cor. 2:9).

That Paul says his message doesn't come from human beings is in keeping Galatians:

"Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead..." (1:1).

"I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ" (1:11-12).

That he says that God's wisdom is "a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began" is in keeping with Rom. 16:25-26, where he says that this hidden mystery is being made known through "the prophetic writings":

"...the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God..."

So not only does Paul say that the hidden mystery is in the OT, It would also make more sense in this context if 1 Cor. 2:9 is a reference to Isaiah rather than the Didache because it seems more likely to me that this mystery would be something hidden in the OT (in keeping with Rom. 16) rather than in the Didache, and because the mystery was something that the rulers of this age (whoever they were) could have understood it: "None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. As it is written..."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The Didache.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:31 pm

So this is our familiar comparison of 1 Corinthians 2.9 with the two relevant verses from Isaiah; the underlined text in Paul is what can be derived directly from the OT:

9ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδεν καὶ οὗς οὐκ ἤκουσεν καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἀνέβη, ἃ ἡτοίμασεν ὁ θεὸς τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν αὐτόν.
9 "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love him."
Isaiah 64.3 LXX: ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος οὐκ ἠκούσαμεν οὐδὲ οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ἡμῶν εἶδον θεὸν πλὴν σοῦ καὶ τὰ ἔργα σου ἃ ποιήσεις τοῖς ὑπομένουσιν ἔλεον.
Isaiah 65.17 LXX: ἔσται γὰρ ὁ οὐρανὸς καινὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ καινή καὶ οὐ μὴ μνησθῶσιν τῶν προτέρων οὐδ᾽ οὐ μὴ ἐπέλθῃ αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὴν καρδίαν.

Let us compare Romans 3.10-18:

10 .... οὐκ ἔστιν δίκαιος οὐδὲ εἷς,
10 .... There is no one righteous, not even one;
Ecclesiastes 7.20 LXX: ὅτι ἄνθρωπος οὐκ ἔστιν δίκαιος ἐν τῇ γῇ ὃς ποιήσει ἀγαθὸν καὶ οὐχ ἁμαρτήσεται.
Psalm 13.1 LXX: οὐκ ἔστιν ποιῶν χρηστότητα οὐκ ἔστιν ἕως ἑνός.

11 οὐκ ἔστινσυνίων, οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ ἐκζητῶν τὸν θεόν.
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
Psalm 13.2 LXX: κύριος ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ διέκυψεν ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τῶν ἀνθρώπων τοῦ ἰδεῖν εἰ ἔστιν συνίωνἐκζητῶν τὸν θεόν.

12 πάντες ἐξέκλιναν, ἅμα ἠχρεώθησαν· οὐκ ἔστινποιῶν χρηστότητα, [οὐκ ἔστιν] ἕως ἑνός.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 13.3 LXX: πάντες ἐξέκλιναν ἅμα ἠχρεώθησαν οὐκ ἔστιν ποιῶν χρηστότητα οὐκ ἔστιν ἕως ἑνός.

13a τάφος ἀνεῳγμένος ὁ λάρυγξ αὐτῶν, ταῖς γλώσσαις αὐτῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν,
13a Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.
Psalm 5.10 LXX: τάφος ἀνεῳγμένος ὁ λάρυγξ αὐτῶν ταῖς γλώσσαις αὐτῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν.

13b ἰὸς ἀσπίδων ὑπὸ τὰ χείλη αὐτῶν,
13b The poison of vipers is on their lips.
Psalm 139.4 LXX: ἰὸς ἀσπίδων ὑπὸ τὰ χείλη αὐτῶν.

14 ὧν τὸ στόμα ἀρᾶς καὶ πικρίας γέμει·
14 Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.
Psalm 9.28 LXX: οὗ ἀρᾶς τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ γέμει καὶ πικρίας καὶ δόλου.

15 ὀξεῖς οἱ πόδες αὐτῶν ἐκχέαι αἷμα, 16 σύντριμμα καὶ ταλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς αὐτῶν, 17 καὶ ὁδὸν εἰρήνης οὐκ ἔγνωσαν.
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know.
Isaiah 59.7-8 LXX: οἱ δὲ πόδες αὐτῶν ἐπὶ πονηρίαν τρέχουσιν ταχινοὶ ἐκχέαι αἷμα καὶ οἱ διαλογισμοὶ αὐτῶν διαλογισμοὶ ἀφρόνων σύντριμμα καὶ ταλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς αὐτῶν καὶ ὁδὸν εἰρήνης οὐκ οἴδασιν.

18 οὐκ ἔστιν φόβος θεοῦ ἀπέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Psalm 35.2 LXX: οὐκ ἔστιν φόβος θεοῦ ἀπέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτοῦ.

By far the most paraphrasing part is that which comes from Psalm 13.2 LXX, since the OT says that the Lord looked down to see whether (εἰ) there was anyone who understands or seeks God, and Paul simply turns this into a blanket statement (in parallel with the other affirmations flanking it) that no, there is no one doing so. As such, even here there is a one-to-one correspondence between what we find in the OT and what we find in Paul.

In a couple of spots the Pauline catena has changed the singular "his" into the plural "their", apparently for consistency.

There are plenty of OT phrases omitted, but very few words and no phrases at all added in the Pauline catena.

Given that the brief contact with Ecclesiastes comes right at the beginning of the catena, there is no example of one passage or psalm being started, postponed, and then resumed again where it was left off. Once Paul leaves Psalm 13.1-3 LXX, for example, he does not come back to it in this catena.

John, I would be interested to know how close you think what we find here is to Paul's treatment of Isaiah in 1 Corinthians 2.9. What are your thoughts?

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

John2
Posts: 3326
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Didache.

Post by John2 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:59 am

Ben,

That's very helpful and makes me see how close everything is to the LXX. I've gone through all of Paul's OT citations that I can find so far and Rom. 3:10-18 is the most like 1 Cor. 2:9, but unlike 1 Cor. 2:9, as you point out, "There are plenty of OT phrases omitted, but very few words and no phrases at all added in the Pauline catena," so perhaps 1 Cor. 2:9 is more extreme in this respect. However, even if it's not as extreme as 1 Cor. 2:9, he still paraphrases, mixes and matches books and adds a few words in the catena (even though all in all it looks fairly accurate).

The next closest parallel to Rom. 3:10-18 and 1 Cor. 2:9 I've found is 1 Cor. 14:21, which also conflates Isaiah and adds a few words:

"In the Law it is written: 'With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.'"

ἐν τῷ νόμῳ γέγραπται ὅτι ἐν ἑτερογλώσσοις καὶ ἐν χείλεσιν ἑτέρων λαλήσω τῷ λαῷ τούτῳ καὶ οὐδ’ οὕτως εἰσακούσονταί μου λέγει κύριος

Is. 28:11-12: "Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, 'This is the resting place, let the weary rest'; and, 'This is the place of repose,' but they would not listen."

LXX: "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear."

διὰ φαυλισμὸν χειλέων διὰ γλώσσης ἑτέρας ὅτι λαλήσουσιν τῷ λαῷ τούτῳ λέγοντες αὐτῷ τοῦτο τὸ ἀνάπαυμα τῷ πεινῶντι καὶ τοῦτο τὸ σύντριμμα καὶ οὐκ ἠθέλησαν ἀκούειν

All in all, I look at it this way. Paul is more or less loose with his OT citations (which is understandable given that he dictated his letters while travelling). And in every other instance (besides 1 Cor. 2:9) that he says something was "as it is written" he means the OT. So 1 Cor. 2:9 would be unique in this respect. And if the "no eye has seen" expression is (however loosely) based on Isaiah but came from the Didache, is it not odd that Paul cites someone else's paraphrase more accurately than the OT?

But again I think the context of 1 Cor. 2:9 saves the day. He emphasizes that he didn't get his message from human wisdom (which would presumably include human writings). "No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began." So God's wisdom was a mystery that was hidden "before time began," like in Rom. 16:25-26, "the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God."

Would it not make more sense that the "rulers of this age" in 1 Cor. 2:8 (whoever they were) could have been (in theory) aware of the existence of this mystery that was hidden "before time began" from the OT rather than from an obscure sectarian writing from (supposedly) the first century CE?
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.

Post Reply