Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

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Peter Kirby
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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by Peter Kirby » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:52 pm

From what I remember of Jastrow there were Jews named Papias or something pretty close.
Yes, Papias of Hierapolis may have been a Jew.
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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by stephan happy huller » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:54 pm

Here is an interesting discussion of the Papias (at least partially):
With the Pope visiting Israel, we hear the unusual Hebrew translation for pope - afifyor (or apifyor) אפיפיור. What is the origin of the word?

It appears once in the Talmud, in Avoda Zara 11a, in a story describing Onkelos the convert, and how the Emperor (his uncle) sent Roman soldiers to arrest him. However, Onkelos was able to convert them as well, by presenting arguments to them. One the arguments was the following:

אמר להו אימא לכו מילתא בעלמא ניפיורא נקט נורא קמי (א)פיפיורא (א)פיפיורא לדוכסא דוכסא להגמונא הגמונא לקומא קומא מי נקט נורא מקמי אינשי אמרי ליה לא אמר להו הקב"ה נקט נורא קמי ישראל דכתיב (שמות יג) וה' הולך לפניהם יומם וגו'

He said to them: 'Let me tell you just an ordinary thing: [In a procession] the torchlighter carries the light in front of the afifior, the afifior in front of the leader, the leader in front of the governor, the governor in front of the chief officer; but does the chief officer carry the light in front of the people [that follow]?' 'No!' they replied. Said he: 'Yet the Holy One, blessed be He, does carry the light before Israel, for Scripture says. "And the Lord went before them … in a pillar of fire to give them light" (Shmot 13:21)

Onkelos was demonstrating God's "humility" as compared with the Roman leader's pride.

From this story we can see that afifyor had no religious standing, but was a type of dignitary or high official (so explain both the Arukh and Rashi). This Aramaic word is generally assumed to come from Greek. Krauss says that it derives from the Greek papias - which Ben Yehuda explains as "torch bearer", Klein as "keeper or janitor of the palace" and Steinsaltz as "the official responsible for the gates". (This book says that the Greek noun papias means "porter, conductor or guide".)http://www.balashon.com/2009/05/afifyor.html
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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by stephan happy huller » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:56 pm

Liddell Scott - παπίας, α, ὁ, janitor or keeper of the Palace, Tz. H. 3.839

No idea what or where Tz.H.3.839 can be found.
Last edited by stephan happy huller on Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by Peter Kirby » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:58 pm

"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown

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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by stephan happy huller » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:01 am

Neusner (proper pronunciation = noise-ner) writes "Although Papias' name could be Jewish, it is more probable that it is Phrygian and that he was a Gentile." http://books.google.com/books?id=v8QUAA ... me&f=false
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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by Peter Kirby » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:03 am

Thanks, now I find out I've been pronouncing Neusner wrong for years!
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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by stephan happy huller » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:09 am

But that may not be the way he pronounced his name.
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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by Peter Kirby » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:13 am

It's okay. I've been pronouncing enough things wrong for years. As long as I can spell them, I should be fine!
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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by DCHindley » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:43 pm

It's in Liddell & Scott:

Tzetzes, Joannes Grammaticus [Tz.] xii A.D.
H. = Historiarum variarum chiliades, ed. T. Kiessling, Leipzig 1826.

DCH
stephan happy huller wrote:Liddell Scott - παπίας, α, ὁ, janitor or keeper of the Palace, Tz. H. 3.839

No idea what or where Tz.H.3.839 can be found.

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Re: Chasing Hegesippus: a short commentary

Post by andrewcriddle » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:43 pm

Hi Peter

I read with interest your posts about Hegesippus.

Assuming that Eusebius' information about Hegesippus comes entirely from readings the works attributed to Hegesippus, it seems clear that Hegesippus must have referred to Anicetus as bishop of Rome. This would imply a date for his writing later than 155 CE which probably makes him too late to be Papias.

Andrew Criddle

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