How Much of the Gospel is Actual History

[Giuseppe]

Define the Essenes?

"Sixty years of research have been wasted trying to find the Essenes in the scrolls. But they didn't exist, they were invented by Josephus. It's a history of errors which is simply nonsense,"

(Rachel Elior)

[outhouse]

Until you provide a coherent defense or explain WHY we should believe a bunch of illiterate peasants 'preserved' the contents of a debate that was over their heads,.

I have never stated that, and was quite clear peasants did no such thing.

From the beginning I have stated this was the Hellenistic version that may not reflect reality, BUT these Hellenist authors thought it was perfectly plausible for this argument to take place, based on there knowledge 40 years after the death of the Galilean.


And Paul was self proclaimed as a Pharisee, and he argued with plenty of typical communities known as pater familias. People of the land in the Diaspora.

I will ignore distracting attempts to change topic

You mean you refuse to look at evidence in context?

[outhouse]

Define the Essenes?

"Sixty years of research have been wasted trying to find the Essenes in the scrolls. But they didn't exist, they were invented by Josephus. It's a history of errors which is simply nonsense,"

(Rachel Elior)

That's one opinion, that only reflects a minor part of the current academia position on the topic.

[Secret Alias]

From the beginning I have stated this was the Hellenistic version that may not reflect reality, BUT these Hellenist authors thought it was perfectly plausible for this argument to take place, based on there knowledge 40 years after the death of the Galilean.

But this is too convoluted for anyone to take seriously. The idea that 'Hellenists' were responsible for the gospel or that they 'accepted' that something was or wasn't possible are debatable beliefs which distract us from the core question of WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS POSSIBLE in the first place. It's a circular argument to say that 'because it's in the gospel that means it was a plausible belief.' If you want me to continue to engage with you, you have to at least try to spend a minute coming up with your answers. This a stupid answer because fiction is always written with an eye on what is likely to be believed. Otherwise it fails.

We don't know how the gospel was written other than it is claimed to have this three tier structure = (1) an idiot is more authoritative than the learned in complex legal matters (2) the story is preserved by idiots until (3) a learned man put it down in 'finished form.' But wait a minute. Why should we believe in the authority of idiots? Why should we believe that idiots were capable of behaving like learned men? Why not just assume that (3) invented the poetic narrative and demand that the defenders of historicity to justify preferring (2) = the reliability of illiterate morons to preserve complex scientific terminology and concepts?

I still say that 1 Corinthians chapters 2 and 3 can be read (and were read) as if Paul augmented a primitive story about a crucified man.

[Secret Alias]

And I think we can begin to see what it was so necessary for Irenaeus to developed 4 GOSPEL NARRATIVES TAKEN AS ONE. Without it - i.e. if there is just one accepted gospel - and that gospel is acknowledged to have developed from 'more primitive' material, it is easy to dismiss the finished gospel as full of exaggerations and embellishments. Irenaeus had to bundle the gospels together because the story of its development just wasn't very credible.

[Peter Kirby]

Let's break this down in picture form.

Nice post.

[outhouse]

The idea that 'Hellenists' were responsible for the gospel

.

Fact. All of our gospel text are Hellenistic.

WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS POSSIBLE in the first place

Absolutely possible.

Jews of all education have NEVER quit arguing about anything religious.

fiction is always written with an eye on what is likely to be believed.

Not always.



To think that Johns best student, could not argue religious topics is not a position YOU can substantiate.

Until you can demonstrate John did not know Judaism, you have no credible position here.

[Secret Alias]

I just finished eating a strawberry popsicle without getting a red stain on my white shirt which took more effort than John outhouse's responses again.

Fact. All of our gospel text are Hellenistic.

What the fuck does this mean? First of all. So what? And if really gave a damn - define 'Hellenistic' (but again I don't so who cares). If you had been paying attention to the discussion (and the illustrations) EVEN IF the finished gospel was originally written in Greek and is 'Hellenistic' according to whatever definition you give to that terminology the point is that you are necessarily assuming ancient witnesses who were illiterate morons who weren't Hellenistic (as I assume that 'Hellenism' is a cultural paradigm and illiterate morons are at once also uncultured boors).

Note also the grammar of your carefully crafted response:

All of our gospel text are Hellenistic

If you keep debating me with one hand on your phone and the other on your dick I am not going to continue this. Please spend some time thinking about the topic and if you can't accomplish that your posts before you post them.

[outhouse]

I just finished eating a strawberry popsicle without getting a red stain on my white shirt which took more effort than John outhouse's responses again.

.

The problem is mr Stephen.


The quality of your OP and the response above is similar.

Your going out a skinny limb with no sources to substantiate your position.


FACT Jews of all education argue religious practice. Later authors attributing an argument that may or may not have a historical core. And nothing you have produced has changed this possibility.

No one has ever stated an argument of literary equals took place. All there need to be is an uneducated argument in tradition, that would be rhetorically built up, and made the two as equals.


You over thought this one, and the best evidence you have supplied was mullet pics.

[MrMacSon]

Let's break this down in picture form.

Nice post.

Seconded!