How Much of the Gospel is Actual History

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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DCHindley
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Re: How Much of the Gospel is Actual History

Post by DCHindley »

John2 wrote:DCH,

Hippolytus mentions different sects of the Essenes, including those who were more zealous and violent like the DSS sect:

"CHAP. XXI.--DIFFERENT SECTS OF THE ESSENI.

"The Essenes have, however, in the lapse of time, undergone divisions, and they do not preserve their system of training after a similar manner, inasmuch as they have been split up into four parties. For some of them discipline themselves above the requisite rules of the order, so that even they would not handle a current coin of the country, saying that they ought not either to carry, or behold, or fashion an image: wherefore no one of those goes into a city, lest (by so doing) he should enter through a gate at which statues are erected, regarding it a violation of law to pass beneath images. But the adherents of another party, if they happen to hear any one maintaining a discussion concerning God and His laws--supposing such to be an uncircumcised person, they will closely watch him and when they meet a person of this description in any place alone, they will threaten to slay him if he refuses to undergo the rite of circumcision. Now, if the latter does not wish to comply with this request, an Essene spares not, but even slaughters. And it is from this occurrence that they have received their appellation, being denominated (by some) Zelotae, but by others Sicarii. And the adherents of another party call no one Lord except the Deity, even though one should put them to the torture, or even kill them. But there are others of a later period, who have to such an extent declined from the discipline (of the order), that, as far as those are concerned who continue in the primitive customs, they would not even touch these. And if they happen to come in contact with them, they immediately resort to ablution, as if they had touched one belonging to an alien tribe. But here also there are very many of them of so great longevity, as even to live longer than a hundred years. They assert, therefore, that a cause of this arises from their extreme devotion to religion, and their condemnation of all excess in regard of what is served up (as food), and from their being temperate and incapable of anger. And so it is that they despise death, rejoicing when they can finish their course with a good conscience. If, however, any one would even put to the torture persons of this description, in order to induce any amongst them either to speak evil of the law, or eat what is offered in sacrifice to an idol, he will not effect his purpose; for one of this party submits to death and endures torment rather than violate his conscience."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ytus9.html
Hippolytus was the schismatic anti-pope of the churches of Rome (from roughly 220–235 CE), which means some individual churches supported him and others the formally ordained bishops Callixtus I (217–222), Urban I (222–230) and Pontian (230–235). While he is sometimes said to have followed the tradition of Irenaeus, and was a heresy hunter similar to Irenaeus and Tertullian, his descriptions of Gnostic heresies use the same names for key groups and leaders, while containing completely different details. The Nag Hammadi texts seems to more closely fit the descriptions of Irenaeus and Tertullian, so Hippolytus seems to have reinterpreted these groups to fit his personal beliefs (he was a hard liner when it came to promoting martyrdom and against wishy-washy Christians who lapse under persecution).

This means he likely did the same with the "heresy" of the Essenes, and the details were probably culled from accounts of Judean resistance fighters from a century or more earlier. They were of course "wrong" in theology (Hippolytus' type of Christian had that "locked up") but I think he kind of admired their intestinal fortitude. For "Hippie", as his friends called him (OK, I made that up), kind of used the term "Essene" for all types of resistance fighters described by Josephus, such as Sicarii and Zealot (none of which continued to exist long after the war of 66-74).

A hundred plus years is a long time for traditions to get garbled. There are some details that were not mentioned by Josephus, such as not passing under gates into towns with statues or handling coins with pagan images, but Josephus may not have been the only source for his details. There had been several accounts of the war Josephus had also wrote about, and there were likely others for the ones that followed (ca. 110-115 CE in North Africa, and ca. 130-135 CE in Judaea).

DCH
John2
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Re: How Much of the Gospel is Actual History

Post by John2 »

DCH,

I don't know what to make of the provenance of the passage, but I tend to suspect, as you wrote:

"...the details were probably culled from accounts of Judean resistance fighters from a century or more earlier"; and: "Josephus may not have been the only source for his details"; or that it came from the first edition of the Jewish War.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: How Much of the Gospel is Actual History

Post by John2 »

Taylor discusses this passage (in tandem with one I hadn't noticed before from Porphyry) on pg. 104-108:

https://books.google.com/books?id=c91oA ... es&f=false
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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