Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by Giuseppe »

gmx wrote:
DCHindley wrote: I would not myself say that speculation over possible separate authors for Luke & Acts, represents a tiny minority of scholarship on the subject. It may be a minority position, but I would say that it is rather a "significant minority position", one with a long history. FWIW, I am not aware of any of these critics being considered kooks.
DCH
This is what bothers me about the current state of scholarship:

In the last 100 years, despite considerable intellectual application and human endeavour, what can really be considered to be "solved" about the synoptic (or early Christian origins) problem?
I am not convinced that the problem is undecidable.

1) There is already a consensus on the fact that these texts are powerful literatures.
2) But powerful literature can be created only by literary geniuses (even if behind anonymity).
3) The literary geniuses must necessarily be known to the public.
4) So the Argument From Silence on the absence of any mention of the Gospels before Marcion is a strong Argument From Silence.
5) conclusion: So Marcion is a potential candidate to be the author of at least one of the four Gospels.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Robert Baird
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by Robert Baird »

Lucan, Luke and Acts

Is it important to know which particular person wrote the lies in the Gospels? I will go along this path for a little while even though I do not think which one did it as to how much they got paid or what threat of Heresy or worse caused or motivated them to do it deserves our consideration. I also know we still have not seen the end of de-coding what was written and what was redacted or altered in every rendition.

It is my perspective that Constantine edited the Bible story and chose from many different sources and manuscripts as well as altering many of those he chose. He was not the first power-monger but it took him about ten years to go along with the 'only begotten" fiction over Arias and the more humane and human adept Source or Q. He was never a Christian despite his widely announced conversion. When Constantine died all the acts of his family fit the Mithraist (perhaps he was even a deeper student of it's origins - a Luciferian or Heliopolitan) system from whence he took the day we celebrate Christmas.

"My assumption has been that Marcion wrote the bulk of Luke, but there was a separate person who wrote Acts, but borrowed from oral tradition and Matthew to write the introduction (birth story) of Luke, and modified it to fit the Orthodoxy. But who was that person?

I learned today that Marcion had a pupil who took his teachings west to Rome. And that pupil’s name was…Lucan.

I cannot be the only person who has ever wondered if Lucan, when he went west to Rome, took Marcion’s gospel with him, repackaged it, and called it Luke…although, I don’t see anyone else making this claim.

There’s a reason no one makes this claim.

Nothing at all is known about Lucan. Nobody seems to know when he went to Rome, nor how his theology differed with Marcion’s, nor whether he had connections with anyone in the Orthodoxy. If Lucan went to Rome prior to 144 (or whenever Marcion was deemed a heretic), then this hypothesis is good…otherwise, it’s dead in the water.

I still think Acts is a problem…the only way a Marcion disciple would have written Acts is if he accepted a more orthodox position…given that Lucan didn’t seem to make bigger waves in Rome, that may very well have happened.. The counterpoint to that argument is that, in 180, Irenaeus made reference to Lucan as a heretic…but then again, he called Cerinthus a heretic, and I think there’s a good chance Cerinthus wrote Matthew."


https://timsteppingout.wordpress.com/tag/marcion/

Phrases like "the only way... if he accepted a more orthodox position" are highly questionable - even if only because during a person's life they and their circumstances change. Talk about creating a false argument and arguing about how many angels fit on the tip of a needle.

I mentioned renditions and in that one word I raised a whole lot of avenues to pursue. It was not just Aquinas who doctored dogma and had to hide in the bowels of the ecclesiasty which threatened his life and that of his great mentor/alchemist Albertus Magnus. What amount of code or memetic implants did Sir Francis inject when King James gave him his Bible to work a little magic upon?

There have been many efforts to refine and define the corpus of every part of the Bible. It is after all is said and done a most horrific creation of so many wars, crusades, prejudices and genocides. A very good insight into one such person before Aquinas follows.
(Compilation copyrighted © 2009 by Timothy Conway, Ph.D., based on works by Dermot Moran, Deirdre Carabine and others.[1])

The crucially important Christian mystic philosopher, translator, theologian and poet, John Scottus Eriugena (Johannes Scottus Eriugena or Scotus Erigena), lived from about 800 or 810 to perhaps 877 CE and has been praised as the “Greatest mind of the early western Medieval period—or last great mind of Antiquity.”

John “of Ireland” (Eriugena means “Irish-born,” where the Scotti were an ancient and extensive tribe) is a major figure in the development of mystical spirituality in western European Christianity. He served as the primary translator-conduit for ideas from the great Greek Christian minds of the Middle-East and Near-East to come into Europe. Richard Woods, expert on the history of Christian spirituality, observes: “It is largely through his efforts that the mystical Neoplatonism of the Eastern Church entered the Latin West.” Or as another writer puts it: “Eriugena was responsible for the meeting of Athens and Rome in Gaul.” (Deirdre Carabine)

Eriugena’s profound theology, later misunderstood and condemned as “pantheism,” actually emphasizes what today many of us would call a pure panentheist view of God’s nature and of the nature of the soul and world. Panen-theism, “all in God,” goes beyond mere pantheism (“all is God”) and mere theism (God is up there, beyond all things down here), to affirm that God is both immanently within and transcendentally beyond all beings.

This mystical panentheism allows God to be truly God, utterly free of all limiting human notions of space-time, distinct entities, finite relationships and other constraints which have more to do with ignorant human conceptions than the actual Divine nature."
http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org ... ugena.html[/url]

J. D. A. Ogilvy is a professor of library studies at a renowned Colorado university - he documents many early books which show Ireland was an active hotbed of writing Christian dogma (see my article A Deal Made with Ireland). Scotti does not just relate to Ireland and when we re-draw maps or change names on pieces of paper we do not alter the genetics and brotherhood we all truly share (Iesa).

https://matthew2262.wordpress.com/tag/manuscripts/

Pelagius was a great and possibly last true Christian author. His battles with Augustine are of great value in perceiving what people in the family of Jesus (many such people with this title) studied.

There are some so-called fundamentalists in Christendom who insist Faith requires no human thinking and their flocks of sheep eat it up, because it allows them to never have to work at knowing themself or to help other people. They can spout off their invective and hate or belief in the wrath of some evil creature up above as if it was they themself (as carriers of suicide bombs or weapons to kill abortion doctors) who are their God's agent.

Because Paul/Saul was a Roman who the Empire used to create a larger Empire and then had him killed when he started to believe or behave as if what they were writing and attributing to him was true, we have issues to explore.

(see first link) First we must ascertain what Paul actually wrote in the Gospels if anything. The same is true for all the rest of the Gospels which were written decades after the death of most of the apostles except perhaps Luke.

(see second link) You should ask who benefitted from getting people to think good acts were no way to get into Heaven especially in light of the recent admission by Pope John Paul II that his ilk created Heaven and Hell. Catholicism did not exist when Paul was alive and Catholicism got and gets lots of money selling special dispensations and confessional exemptions from karmic bad acts. Pauline Christianity is in fact Romanism or Popery and it did not truly arrive in Christendom until the fifth Century AD. The Law of Retribution or karma was removed from the faith at this time. Easter and the Resurrection fiction took a couple of further centuries to invent or force upon all Christian denominations in places like Acre, Antioch, Alexandria and Bangor or Iona. When we stopped thinking of Jesus as a man we allowed interpreters for our soul to gain control of the Old World. Tom Harpur was the religion editor for the Toronto Star, and he stopped believing in the Resurrection fiction after I gave him three alternative explanations. He stopped calling himself Christian and you can too. When we were teenagers we ran a boy's club in his church's recreation hall. He has written extensively about these matters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_Timothy

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/...research.shtml The link is not clickable but putting it in your browser gets to many good sources.

My argument or paper for Tom focused on the purely Therapeutaeic medical knowledge of Belladonna as well as Intent and Yoga's ability to stop the heart and even brain from registering on modern machines as has been demonstrated. A better argument against Paul (The Resurrection on the road to Damascus was a fiction I say, because Jesus did not die on the cross.) or indeed the whole of Christianity as it is today comes down to Grace and good acts or the Augustine versus Pelagius debates. Augustine was suffering obsessions all his life according to the American Psychoanalytical Society input to the autobiography of Augustine (Confessions). One of his obsessions was trying to get Pelagius defrocked. I think part of this need Augustine felt had to do with his own guilt about his early life support for Manicheanism and how he sold out to join Catholicism due to it's greater potential to reward him. As a Manichean he ridiculed Bible writings as compared to Cicero - he called them children's stories. And that is a fair appreciation or review of the Bible compared to more ethical and moral standards such as Pelagius stood for. Mani was definately ecumenical and a supporter of humans over gods or demons and angels. And in the end Tom Harpur lost his faith because he was a good man.

It is not me putting my modern philosophy upon an earlier culture. The Pharisaic school of Gamaliel which Paul said he was a student at and which extant rolls of students prove otherwise, developed or played a role in developing what we call The Golden Rule. This rule speaks to good acts and karma as I see it. The Pharisees were no "inbred Temple idiots" or Sadduccees which James the Righteous leader of the essanoi (The word Essene came later.) railed against. The Pharisees were not what modern pulpit-pounders portray them as. Rather than greedy elitists they were respected throughout the Roman and Parthian Empires for their good deeds and support for indigents and women.

Contrary to what my Ogham mentor thought as he told me about his work with the Dead Sea Scrolls at the Huntington Library before they released them to the world, I think these Scrolls do have insight to a far larger culture including Buddhist literature or influence. Dr. Norman Golb thinks the whole of Scroll research is politicized to present fictions in line with history. He says the scrolls are a repository of knowledge for a far larger culture than just Palestine.

So, when we see The Law of Retribution or karma removed from Christology with the ascendancy of Pauline Romanism I say we saw the end of what Yeshua, his family of Merovingians, and most centers of Christian and pre-Christian thought entailed. I know Pelagius as a scholar of what I think Poseidonius's writings would have given insight to about the far greater early religion which St. Columba learned at Iona and lead him to say "Jesus is the new Druid." Good acts were central to the 'no fear' destiny of the Keltoi. Like me they did not believe the soul died and their Creed (on tablets found in Hittite lands in Anatolia dating to a millennium before Christ) proudly says they did not fear the opening of the heavens above or ground beneath their feet. I have a more Jungian collective insight and do not think the ego or personality which is what we are - continues.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=dZ4...cts%22&f=false

A scholarly approach to Paul and Rome.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id...page&q&f=false
outhouse
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by outhouse »

Peter Kirby wrote:
outhouse wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:
The answer to this question requires a careful delineation of terms. What is "Luke," when "Luke" may have had more than one version?

.
Yes Carrier touches on that.
FWIW, when I presented the book Marcion and Luke-Acts: A Defining Struggle to Carrier as a reading suggestion (in person), he seemed a little dismissive.
I just remembered reading one of his articles where he suggested more then one version. I forgot the details of such.
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by outhouse »

gmx wrote:How watertight is the case that Luke and Acts emanate from the same hand? .
Its pretty water tight.


Nobody has made a good argument against it. A few have tried and failed.
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by gmx »

Peter Kirby wrote:
gmx wrote:How watertight is the case that Luke and Acts emanate from the same hand? Given the absence of Acts from Marcion's canon, it would seem that either Marcion doctored canonical Luke, or Acts is the product of a different author.
The evidence, stylometric and internal, points towards the idea that the last person to significantly expand a gospel into the one we know as "Luke" (with the prologue and other portions) is the same person as the author of Acts.
So...
a) what's the current scholarly position wrt the existence of persons who were able to "significantly expand a gospel into the one we know as Luke"? Not just one pundit's view, but what are the assenting and dissenting opinions among scholars who have reviewed the work?
b) Is there a demonstrable substrate within Luke which is stylistically distinct from the rest of Luke, but at the same time is stylistically harmonious with Acts? Again, what is the scholarly state of play wrt to such arguments?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by Peter Kirby »

gmx wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:
gmx wrote:How watertight is the case that Luke and Acts emanate from the same hand? Given the absence of Acts from Marcion's canon, it would seem that either Marcion doctored canonical Luke, or Acts is the product of a different author.
The evidence, stylometric and internal, points towards the idea that the last person to significantly expand a gospel into the one we know as "Luke" (with the prologue and other portions) is the same person as the author of Acts.
So...
a) what's the current scholarly position wrt the existence of persons who were able to "significantly expand a gospel into the one we know as Luke"? Not just one pundit's view, but what are the assenting and dissenting opinions among scholars who have reviewed the work?
b) Is there a demonstrable substrate within Luke which is stylistically distinct from the rest of Luke, but at the same time is stylistically harmonious with Acts? Again, what is the scholarly state of play wrt to such arguments?
a) This is true for anyone who doesn't believe in the priority of canonical Luke, which means that it is held by pretty much everyone of note.

b) The scholarship is significantly divided over whether the Gospel of Luke should be viewed as a unity, the work of a single author (working from previous synoptic material), or as the work of more than one "Lucan" author (more than one author of "special" Lucan material, not in other synoptics).

The statement about:
The evidence, stylometric and internal, points towards the idea that the last person to significantly expand a gospel into the one we know as "Luke" (with the prologue and other portions) is the same person as the author of Acts.
... encompasses both those who view the Gospel of Luke as a unity in this sense and those who view canonical Luke as an expanded text (with prologue, infancy narratives, and other alterations).

There indeed may be a "demonstrable substrate within Luke," to use your phrasing, but that doesn't amount to a consensus view.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by outhouse »

Peter Kirby wrote:
b) The scholarship is significantly divided over whether the Gospel of Luke should be viewed as a unity, the work of a single author (working from previous synoptic material), or as the work of more than one "Lucan" author (more than one author of "special" Lucan material, not in other synoptics).
.

There is a debate over a possible single author, or a community effort?


Or as multiple different communities that redacted the work of one community?
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by Adam »

I see as possible the reduction of the common "Lucan" authorship to just the two prologues. The style is quite arch.
Nevertheless the first twelve chapters of Acts with their Aramaic-origin sections could be from the same author as wrote the Proto-Gospel (that outhouse does not believe in, even a Proto-Mark or a Proto-Luke). To which I still say, "Nuts!" (After the U. S. Battle of the Bulge General Grey, defending Bastogne)
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by Peter Kirby »

outhouse wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:
b) The scholarship is significantly divided over whether the Gospel of Luke should be viewed as a unity, the work of a single author (working from previous synoptic material), or as the work of more than one "Lucan" author (more than one author of "special" Lucan material, not in other synoptics).
.

There is a debate over a possible single author, or a community effort?


Or as multiple different communities that redacted the work of one community?
No, and no. That's not what I'm saying here.

Think about the text, not the author. A text has an author (yes, possibly more than one, but that is not the point here).

Viewing it as a "unity" sees the special Lucan material (along with Acts) as coming into being all at once, as its own writing/publishing event (one "author," whether that "author" be singular or plural).

The alternative to that is not 'community' work but rather multiple writing/publishing events, responsible for different parts of the development of the text we possess.
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Re: Was Lucan Luke? Was Luke Lukan?

Post by outhouse »

Peter Kirby wrote:
outhouse wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:
b) The scholarship is significantly divided over whether the Gospel of Luke should be viewed as a unity, the work of a single author (working from previous synoptic material), or as the work of more than one "Lucan" author (more than one author of "special" Lucan material, not in other synoptics).
.

There is a debate over a possible single author, or a community effort?


Or as multiple different communities that redacted the work of one community?
No, and no. That's not what I'm saying here.

Think about the text, not the author. A text has an author (yes, possibly more than one, but that is not the point here).

Viewing it as a "unity" sees the special Lucan material (along with Acts) as coming into being all at once, as its own writing/publishing event (one "author," whether that "author" be singular or plural).

The alternative to that is not 'community' work but rather multiple writing/publishing events, responsible for different parts of the development of the text we possess.

Thank you for the clarification


I'm pretty sure my view is the academic middle of the road here.

What I follow is that the community who first compiled Luke, some time later compiled Acts. Not at the same time, and no proto versions of either. The L source is to small with all the rest of the plagiarized material.


I don't think either had a proto version, nor could that ever be proved due to the pieces being compilations. I think some want to pick previous traditions compiled, and try and fabricate a proto text for the sole purpose of a personal agenda that uses this "proto" conclusion to get there.

There would never be a way to tell how many other people were involved in the text of each, but the same talented scribe seems to have recorded both. He very well could have been directed by different people.
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