Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus angel

[Michael BG]

... or Philo never identifies a "Jesus angel." The angel from Zechariah ... is not a Jesus

I gues we need to look at the specific passages from Philo - "Confusion of Tongues 62-63, 146-7", & "On Dreams 1.215; etc" - and from Zechariah - to fully assess Carrier's propositions/theses.

On Dreams 1.215 wasn’t very useful, but maybe there is a leap involved.

Confusion of Tongues 62-63:

“(62) I have also heard of one of the companions of Moses having uttered such a speech as this: "Behold, a man whose name is the East!"{18}{#zec 6:12.} A very novel appellation indeed, if you consider it as spoken of a man who is compounded of body and soul; but if you look upon it as applied to that incorporeal being who in no respect differs from the divine image, you will then agree that the name of the east has been given to him with great felicity. (63) For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns.”
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text ... ook15.html

Zech 6:12 RSV:

“[12] and say to him, `Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall grow up in his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD.”

צמח (tsemach) = sprout, bud or branch

Confusion of Tongues 146:

"(146) And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God's image, and he who sees Israel."

We can all see that Philo has an angel who shares some of the attributes given to Jesus Christ by early Christians. This has always been recognised.

However I can’t see Philo naming this angel Jesus. He names him “the East” unless the translation is incorrect.

Zechariah names him “the Sprout” which might link him to the house of David or Messiah as we might expect.

From these readings it seems that Carrier has misrepresented his case. He should have just kept to what other people say regarding Philo and Jesus Christ.

[Bernard Muller]

In a recent presentation, Carrier refers to Philo's description of an angel named Jesus based on an Old Testament passage in Zachariah. Carrier doesn't appear to state the exact passages, but does briefly show "Confusion of Tongues 62-63, 146-7", and "On Dreams 1.215; etc"

Philo describes this angel named Jesus as having the following attributes -

the first-born son of God
the celestial image of God
God's agent of creation
God's celestial High Priest

That's not a secret, that before and after Jesus being on earth, he was believed as a heavenly deity in heaven, according to Paul and the author of Hebrews.

About an angel named Jesus in Philo's writing: totally false: http://historical-jesus.info/17.html

Carrier then refers to Philippians 2:5-11, 1 Corinthians 15, stories about death & burial of Osiris in outer space, and references to Adam's burial in outer space in the Revelation of Moses, before moving to the Ascension of Isaiah and how it was being redacted [by a sect] around the same time the canonical Gospels were being written by 'another sect of Christianity': ~80-130AD/CE.

- About 1 Corinthians 15:3-11: http://historical-jesus.info/9.html. This passage is a later interpolation.

- About death & burial of Osiris in outer space, I wonder where Carrier found that: it is so obvious in the evidence provided by Plutarch that these two events were believed to happen on earth:
http://historical-jesus.info/djp1.html then search on: 2.9.3.

- About Adam's burial in outer space in the Revelation of Moses: resulting from some very awkward later interpolations:
http://historical-jesus.info/15.html and http://historical-jesus.info/16.html

- About the Ascension of Isaiah: http://historical-jesus.info/100.html

2 Peter 1:16 and 2 Peter 2:1

I have no idea how these two verses suggest what Carrier want us to believe.

All the so-called evidence of Carrier is very flawed, even rather stupid.

The earliest redaction of the Ascension of Isaiah has 'Jesus' stay in outer space though 'He' descends to just below the moon where 'He' is crucified by Satan. 'He' is buried there before 'He' is resurrected to appear to select followers to send them out as missionaries.

What I bolded is not in the Vision of Isaiah. Carrier made it up.

Cordially, Bernard

[DCHindley]

I see Carrier has covered his cardigan sweater with his yachting windbreaker. I still wonder about the guy ...

[MrMacSon]

Zech 6:12 RSV:

“[12] and say to him, `Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall grow up in his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD.”

צמח (tsemach) = sprout, bud or branch

Zechariah names him “the Sprout” which might link him to the house of David or Messiah as we might expect.

n_t.ser is the root word of Nazareth - I'll come back to this ie. I will add more here ....

ne.tser (natser/natsar) = a branch; a shoot; a descendant http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5342.htm

netser is transliterated to Nazir

We see a major messianic link with netser in Isaiah 11:1 -

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse*, and a Branch [netser] shall grow out of his roots
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears;
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth ...

* Jesse is the Father of King David

and Zechariah 3:8

Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who sit before you, for they are men who are a sign: behold, I will bring my servant the Branch.

and Nazirite/Nazarite, which comes from nazir, means (i) under a vow; (ii) consecrated; (iii) vow of 'separation'; or (iv) crowned

• eg. Judges 13:1-7
  
  THE VOW OF THE NAZIRITE
  
  The law concerning the Nazarites.

RT France pointed out that The Septuagint gives "Nazirite" as ναζιραιον, while Matthew gives Nazorean as the very similar Ναζωραῖος -

• France, RT. The Gospel of Matthew, pp. 92-93.

Samson was a Nazarite -

Two examples of nazirites in the Hebrew Bible are Samson (Judges 13:5), and Samuel (1 Samuel 1:11). In the first case [Samson], God sent an angel to make the vow known to the mother for her not yet conceived son of what he wanted the child to be like in his life (ref. Judges 13:3–5),

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite# ... brew_Bible

Natzeret is the word netzer plus the feminine ending, designated by the letter Tav

and Nazeroth is the feminine-plural

.

[MrMacSon]

Confusion of Tongues 146:

"(146) And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God's image, and he who sees Israel."

We can all see that Philo has an angel who shares some of the attributes given to Jesus Christ by early Christians. This has always been recognised.

However I can’t see Philo naming this angel Jesus. He names him “the East” unless the translation is incorrect.

I wonder if there are ties to Josephus's Jesus ben Ananias/Ananus

• (though that Jesus ben Ananias/Ananus story is supposedly ~66AD/CE ie. later than Philo) -

• "A voice from the east,
  a voice from the west,
  a voice from the four winds,
  a voice against Jerusalem and the sanctuary,
  a voice against the bridegroom and the bride,
  a voice against all the people."
  
  Jewish Wars 6.5.3

[MrMacSon]

re 2 Peter 1:16 and 2 Peter 2:1 -
I have no idea how these two verses suggest what Carrier want us to believe.

2 Peter 1:16 shows one sect having a dig at another.

Carrier: "The earliest redaction of the Ascension of Isaiah has 'Jesus' stay in outer space though 'He' descends to just below the moon where 'He' is crucified by Satan. 'He' is buried there before 'He' is resurrected to appear to select followers to send them out as missionaries".

What I bolded is not in the Vision of Isaiah. Carrier made it up.

Carrier is referring to the "earliest redaction of the Ascension of Isaiah", so maybe he has a version that's not widely available.

Still, he should publish justifications for these propositions, rather than merely assert them.

[MrMacSon]

The Septuagint uses a number of terms to translate the 16 uses of nazir in the Hebrew Bible, such as

• "he who vowed" (euxamenos εὐξαμένος) [Numbers 6:21]x
  
  "he who was made holy" (egiasmenos ἡγιασμένος) [Amos 2:11]y

x Amos is the first prophet to use the term "the Day of the Lord"; a phrase important in later prophetic and apocalyptic literature.

y all of Numbers 6 espouses the role of Sacrifice and a Sin-offering by a Nazarite


Apparently Philo chiefly read the Septuagint in Greek -

Philo read the Jewish Scriptures chiefly in the Septuagint Greek translation.[28] His knowledge of Hebrew has been a matter of scholarly dispute, with most scholars arguing that he did not read the language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo#Knowledge_of_Hebrew

Pious Jews used the term Nazarene to refer to Christians, and are alleged to have called Jesus 'Netser'.


There are other variations of Nazorean/Nazarene, and interesting NT groupings of them: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(title)#Variants


In Acts, Paul of Tarsus is called "a ringleader of the sect of the Nazoreans" (Acts 24:5); and Paul is elsewhere described as taking a vow and shaving his head, paralleling Numbers 6 -

Acts 18:18 (KJV) -

"And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow"

Acts 21:23-24 (KJV) -

"Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law"

.

[outhouse]

Carrier refers to Philo's description of an angel named Jesus

Just throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks I guess.


Its sort of god of the gaps type of an argument that will gain no steam what so ever.

[Bernard Muller]

2 Peter 1:16 shows one sect having a dig at another.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
The verse does not necessarily suggest infighting between sects, or even that "Lord Jesus Christ" was not on earth at some time.

Carrier is referring to the "earliest redaction of the Ascension of Isaiah", so maybe he has a version that's not widely available.
Still, he should publish justifications for these propositions, rather than merely assert them.

Carrier had only the R.H. Charles' harmonization of the different known versions of the Vision of Isaiah. What Carrier called the earliest redaction is that harmonization minus the "mini-gospel" (AoI 11:2-22).
http://historical-jesus.info/100.html: but once we remove what is not common between the different versions, we have basically a Jewish text with very little, but rather obvious, Christian interpolations.

Cordially, Bernard

[Giuseppe]

That Philo calls his angel :
the first-born son of God
the celestial image of God
God's agent of creation
God's celestial High Priest, etc,

it's a mere coincidence.

That Paul calls his Jesus:
the first-born son of God
the celestial image of God
God's agent of creation
God's celestial High Priest, etc,

it's a coincidence.

But that Philo calls his angel 'JESUS' (by seeing that Zecharia calls Anatolè his Jesus - even if that Jesus was not meant by Zecahria), alas, that cannot be a coincidence!

Note that in virtue of the same logic, I find basically right my idea that the first evangelist based on Pilate's episode about insignia (in Josephus' Antiquities):
1) that a Roman governor was pressed by Jews to remove foreign idols in Jerusalem is a coincidence,
2) that a Roman governor was pressed by the Jews to kill Jesus in Jerusalem is a coincidence,
3) but that that Roman governor was named ''Pilate'' cannot be a coincidence.


I remember that Philo has introduced already an allegorical reading of the term 'sons of David':

And I also admire the things which are spoken under divine inspiration in the books of Kings, according to which those who flourished many generations afterwards and lived in a blameless manner, are spoken of as the sons of David who wrote hymns to God; {44}{2 Ezr. 8:2.} though, during his lifetime, even their great grandfathers had not yet been born. The truth is, that the birth here spoken of is that of souls made immortal by their virtues, not of perishable bodies, and this birth is naturally referred to the leaders of virtue, as its parents and progenitors.
(On the confusion of tongues, 28:146-148)

The logic of Philo - or of Paul (if existed) - is that:

1) this birth [from David] is naturally referred to the leaders of virtue.
2) the Archangel/Logos of Philo, already named 'Jesus' (via Carrier's proof of this I presume you know already), represents the maximum of moral perfection, etc.
3) therefore: the Archangel Jesus is the son of David par excellence, too.