Why Cesarea?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Cesarea?

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:49 am

Actually, the city of Cesarea Philippi and its pagan temples were built below that "great rock" on a flat plain.

Cordially, Bernard
not just ''below''.

I read from here:
a rock literally filled with niches for pagan idols, where ungodly values dominated.
The image in background has no need of other words.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3424
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Why Cesarea?

Post by Bernard Muller » Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:01 am

a rock literally filled with niches for pagan idols, where ungodly values dominated
There were very few niches on the face of that rock:
http://www.greatcommission.com/israel/C ... fHades.jpg

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Cesarea?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:04 am

Matthew 21:19.
While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message

The seat of Pilate had to be probably in Cesarea.

It is there, in Cesarea, where the crowd is assembled, per Luke 23:13:

Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people

It is there where there was the Roman custom of satisfying the crowd by releasing the condamned people.

In Cesarea.

There was a confusion, between Jerusalem and Cesarea, about the place of the trial of Jesus.
  • Originally, it was in Cesarea where Peter said: you are the Christ (the king of Jews).
  • Originally, it was in Cesarea where Pilate said: you are the Christ (the king of Jews).
But note the difference:
  • while the episode of Cesarea with Peter was found in the Earliest Gospel, the meaning being that Jesus rejected the title of Christ given to him by Peter in a Roman territory (read: in Rome in the real history)
  • …the episode of Pilate calling Jesus as Christ/"king of Jews" was added (just as the entire Barabbas episode) by the Judaizers to make it clear that Jesus was the Jewish Christ for a Roman audience (who is the audience the author wanted to evangelize and address in the real History).
ADDENDA:

Note that I already think and believe very much strongly that in the original Cesarea episode, the part in red are very probably mere interpolations by Judaizers:
27 Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?”
28 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”
29 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Peter answered, “[the people say:] You are the Messiah.”
30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

Hence the meaning is evident: all the (Christian) Romans believed that Jesus was the Christ. This talks a lot about the identity:

Jewish-Christians of Rome == Judaizers.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Cesarea?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:24 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:04 am
There was a confusion, between Jerusalem and Cesarea, about the place of the trial of Jesus.
  • Originally, it was in Cesarea where Peter said: you are the Christ (the king of Jews).
  • Originally, it was in Cesarea where Pilate said: you are the Christ (the king of Jews).

Really, the following episode:

“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate.

You have said so,” Jesus replied.

(Mark 15:2)

...is the perfect total Judaizing antithesis of Mark 8:27,30:

“Who do people say I am?”
Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

Note the total contrast:
  • Jesus doesn't allow Peter to claim he (Jesus) is Christ
  • Jesus allows Pilate to claim he (Jesus) is Christ.
Accordingly, Peter is silent, while Pilate calls Jesus the guy "called Christ" (="king of Jews").

The two episodes can't come from the same author.

It is too much evident that who invented, in 8:27-30, a Jesus commanding silence on him as Christ in a Roman territory can't be the same author who invented a Jesus who moves the Roman procurator himself to call him as Christ, in 15:2.
  • The Messianic Secret is meant to deny Jesus is the Christ.
  • The Messianic Rumor is meant to claim Jesus is the Christ.
The Messianic Secret is about the Jesus Son of Father (parodied by the Judaizers as "Jesus Bar-Abbas"), while the Messianic Rumor is about the Jesus called Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Cesarea?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:14 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:24 am
  • The Messianic Secret is meant to deny Jesus is the Christ.
  • The Messianic Rumor is meant to claim Jesus is the Christ.
The Messianic Secret is about the Jesus Son of Father (parodied by the Judaizers as "Jesus Bar-Abbas"), while the Messianic Rumor is about the Jesus called Christ.
  • It is not a coincidence that Marcion was expelled just by the Christians of Rome.
  • It is not a coincidence that just in Cesarea the people called Jesus as "Christ".
Hence, the simplest explanation is that, to place just in Cesarea (=allegory of Judaizers in Rome) the episode of people calling Jesus "the Christ", the gospel of Mark was written around the time Marcion was expelled by Rome
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1547
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Why Cesarea?

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:41 pm

Hello everyone --

This is another in a Series of CW Posts. *Sigh*. I hate doing these. Nobody appears to put the material into their Framework. Hence, no comments. I still feel that it is important to see, however. The most general statement here is that, when looking for meaning in the NT writings, we should look to Historical Records (or Pseudo-Historical Records) before jumping off the train and singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" to a Metaphysical end. The Logical Positivist's Verification Principle may be invoked but, of course, that accomplishes nothing for those who don't want to play.

"Existence is not a Predicate". The phrase "Because Jesus" doesn't change that.

Matthew 7: 6 - 14 (RSV):

[6] "Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.
[7] "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
[8] For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
[9] Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
[10] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
[11] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
[12] So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
[13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Here is an ideal Matthean Passage, massaged to give a meaning of a Majestic savior/god saving the Backward Population when a common, ordinary meaning may accrue.

Note on Methodology: There are Clues/Hints/Jokes all over these Passages in the NT that point to the Historical Features (See for ex. Mark 10: 18: "No one is good but God alone...". This is not a "Jesus Character" being humble. It parallels a story of Archelaus falling to the feet of Caesar. BEFORE you get all misty eyed Metaphysical, at least try to see that may be something in Josephus or Tacitus or something.).

Verses 9 - 11 provide the biggest Clues/Hints that something else is going on:
***
[9] "Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?"

Josephus, Antiquities..., 15, 9, 6:

"So Herod endeavored to rectify this inconvenience, and laid out such a compass towards the land as might be sufficient for a haven, wherein the great ships might lie in safety; and this he effected by letting down vast stones of above fifty feet in length, not less than eighteen in breadth, and nine in depth, into twenty fathom deep; and as some were lesser, so were others bigger than those dimension...The city was called Caesarea..."


There is a Great Famine in Judea. Herod sells everything in the Palace to obtain grain from the Egyptian Procurator Petronius. He will give bread away to anyone and the Mishmarot Priests worry that these will be "Bribes" and the people will be swayed by this. [See Edit Note Below]
***
[10] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?

An Egyptian Joke, going back to Moses.
***
[11] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

If you then, who are evil...: "Of course, this refers to evil people, ESPECIALLY those filthy Jews...". No! Who is Evil here? Herod.

This is another Herod Story. This Passage is arguing over the Loyalties of the Population. The Sofistikates in the Hellenized Jerusalem may be easily swayed by "mere food" but with Caesarea being the "Any Port in a Storm", ending the Hunger in the pit of your stomach trumps "Five Loaves of Bread and the Two Fish ".

After this Analysis, you wanna do a Historical Examination of how all of this was Gnosticised? Knock yourself out. Go for it. Just remember what came first.

CW

{Edit Note:

"Now it happened that this care of his, and this seasonable benefaction, had such influence on the Jews, and was so cried up among other nations, as to wipe off that old hatred which his violation of some of their customs, during his reign, had procured him among all the nation, and that this liberality of his assistance in this their greatest necessity was full satisfaction for all that he had done of that nature, as it also procured him great fame among foreigners; and it looked as if these calamities that afflicted his land, to a degree plainly incredible, came in order to raise his glory, and to be to his great advantage; for the greatness of his liberality in these distresses, which he now demonstrated beyond all expectation, did so change the disposition of the multitude towards him, that they were ready to suppose he had been from the beginning not such a one as they had found him to be by experience, but such a one as the care he had taken of them in supplying their necessities proved him now to be..."

Compare with:

Mark 9: 42 (RSV):

[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

Herod. This is all one Story.]
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Cesarea?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:59 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:24 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:04 am
There was a confusion, between Jerusalem and Cesarea, about the place of the trial of Jesus.
  • Originally, it was in Cesarea where Peter said: you are the Christ (the king of Jews).
  • Originally, it was in Cesarea where Pilate said: you are the Christ (the king of Jews).

Really, the following episode:

“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate.

You have said so,” Jesus replied.

(Mark 15:2)

...is the perfect total Judaizing antithesis of Mark 8:27,30:

“Who do people say I am?”
Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

Note the total contrast:
  • Jesus doesn't allow Peter to claim he (Jesus) is Christ
  • Jesus allows Pilate to claim he (Jesus) is Christ.
Accordingly, Peter is silent, while Pilate calls Jesus the guy "called Christ" (="king of Jews").

The two episodes can't come from the same author.

It is too much evident that who invented, in 8:27-30, a Jesus commanding silence on him as Christ in a Roman territory can't be the same author who invented a Jesus who moves the Roman procurator himself to call him as Christ, in 15:2.
  • The Messianic Secret is meant to deny Jesus is the Christ.
  • The Messianic Rumor is meant to claim Jesus is the Christ.
The Messianic Secret is about the Jesus Son of Father (parodied by the Judaizers as "Jesus Bar-Abbas"), while the Messianic Rumor is about the Jesus called Christ.
Ireneus reports the link bleeding woman/Cesarea:

Since I have mentioned this city [Cesarea] I do not think it proper to omit an account which is worthy of record for posterity. For they say that the woman with an issue of blood, who, as we learn from the sacred Gospel, received from our Saviour deliverance from her affliction, came from this place, and that her house is shown in the city, and that remarkable memorials of the kindness of the Saviour to her remain there.
2. For there stands upon an elevated stone, by the gates of her house, a brazen image of a woman kneeling, with her hands stretched out, as if she were praying. Opposite this is another upright image of a man, made of the same material, clothed decently in a double cloak, and extending his hand toward the woman. At his feet, beside the statue itself, is a certain strange plant, which climbs up to the hem of the brazen cloak, and is a remedy for all kinds of diseases.
3. They say that this statue is an image of Jesus. It has remained to our day, so that we ourselves also saw it when we were staying in the city.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250107.htm

Hence the bleeding woman allegorizes the Christians of Rome, i.e. the same Judaizers who need a physical fleshly carnal Jesus to be healed. The episode of the bleeding woman is clearly a parody against the Judaizers by the Gnostics:

just those who believe that Jesus lived "in the flesh", just they, are allegorized by a woman who needs the touch of the flesh of Jesus to be healed.

But not even the flesh: the garment was sufficient, to heal her. That is the true miracle. From the POV of Marcion and Marcionites, obviously.

A Judaizer or a Catholic would have no need of that distinction, between flesh and garment.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1547
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Why Caesarea?

Post by Charles Wilson » Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:57 pm

It's important to see the last verses of this Passage in Matthew 7 as the end of a Herod story, a story about the construction of Caesarea as a Safe Harbor that allows grain from Petronius, Procurator of Egypt to be unloaded and distributed to the people of Judea. The Priestly Groups fear that this "Kindness" will be for the glory of Herod and not for the Glory of God, as reflected in Mark 9: 42, quoted above.

Matthew 7:

[13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Josephus, Antiquities..., 15, 9, 6:

"This city is situate in Phoenicia, in the passage by sea to Egypt, between Joppa and Dora, which are lesser maritime cities, and not fit for havens, on account of the impetuous south winds that beat upon them, which rolling the sands that come from the sea against the shores, do not admit of ships lying in their station; but the merchants are generally there forced to ride at their anchors in the sea itself..."

Thus the problem. It is a treacherous stretch and the ships cannot even approach the shoreline without fear.
Definition: "Mole": A massive work formed of masonry and large stones or earth laid in the sea as a pier or breakwater

Herod begins construction of a Safe Harbor:

"...and this he effected by letting down vast stones of above fifty feet in length, not less than eighteen in breadth, and nine in depth, into twenty fathom deep; and as some were lesser, so were others bigger than those dimensions. This mole which he built by the sea-side was two hundred feet wide, the half of which was opposed to the current of the waves, so as to keep off those waves which were to break upon them, and so was called Procymatia, or the first breaker of the waves; but the other half had upon it a wall, with several towers, the largest of which was named Drusus, and was a work of very great excellence, and had its name from Drusus, the son-in-law of Caesar, who died young. There were also a great number of arches where the mariners dwelt. There was also before them a quay, [or landing place,] which ran round the entire haven, and was a most agreeable walk to such as had a mind to that exercise; but the entrance or mouth of the port was made on the north quarter, on which side was the stillest of the winds of all in this place: and the basis of the whole circuit on the left hand, as you enter the port, supported a round turret, which was made very strong, in order to resist the greatest waves..."

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few

Image

CW

PS: This Passage is radically different from the Story of "Enter through the Narrow Door", found in Matthew 18: 2 - 4 and Luke 13: 23 - 24. These two Fragments tell of the Saving of the Priest and have nothing to do with the Construction of Caesarea.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8144
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Cesarea?

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:23 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:59 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:24 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:04 am
There was a confusion, between Jerusalem and Cesarea, about the place of the trial of Jesus.
  • Originally, it was in Cesarea where Peter said: you are the Christ (the king of Jews).
  • Originally, it was in Cesarea where Pilate said: you are the Christ (the king of Jews).

Really, the following episode:

“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate.

You have said so,” Jesus replied.

(Mark 15:2)

...is the perfect total Judaizing antithesis of Mark 8:27,30:

“Who do people say I am?”
Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

Note the total contrast:
  • Jesus doesn't allow Peter to claim he (Jesus) is Christ
  • Jesus allows Pilate to claim he (Jesus) is Christ.
Accordingly, Peter is silent, while Pilate calls Jesus the guy "called Christ" (="king of Jews").

The two episodes can't come from the same author.

It is too much evident that who invented, in 8:27-30, a Jesus commanding silence on him as Christ in a Roman territory can't be the same author who invented a Jesus who moves the Roman procurator himself to call him as Christ, in 15:2.
  • The Messianic Secret is meant to deny Jesus is the Christ.
  • The Messianic Rumor is meant to claim Jesus is the Christ.
The Messianic Secret is about the Jesus Son of Father (parodied by the Judaizers as "Jesus Bar-Abbas"), while the Messianic Rumor is about the Jesus called Christ.
Ireneus reports the link bleeding woman/Cesarea:

Since I have mentioned this city [Cesarea] I do not think it proper to omit an account which is worthy of record for posterity. For they say that the woman with an issue of blood, who, as we learn from the sacred Gospel, received from our Saviour deliverance from her affliction, came from this place, and that her house is shown in the city, and that remarkable memorials of the kindness of the Saviour to her remain there.
2. For there stands upon an elevated stone, by the gates of her house, a brazen image of a woman kneeling, with her hands stretched out, as if she were praying. Opposite this is another upright image of a man, made of the same material, clothed decently in a double cloak, and extending his hand toward the woman. At his feet, beside the statue itself, is a certain strange plant, which climbs up to the hem of the brazen cloak, and is a remedy for all kinds of diseases.
3. They say that this statue is an image of Jesus. It has remained to our day, so that we ourselves also saw it when we were staying in the city.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250107.htm

Hence the bleeding woman allegorizes the Christians of Rome, i.e. the same Judaizers who need a physical fleshly carnal Jesus to be healed. The episode of the bleeding woman is clearly a parody against the Judaizers by the Gnostics:

just those who believe that Jesus lived "in the flesh", just they, are allegorized by a woman who needs the touch of the flesh of Jesus to be healed.

But not even the flesh: the garment was sufficient, to heal her. That is the true miracle. From the POV of Marcion and Marcionites, obviously.

A Judaizer or a Catholic would have no need of that distinction, between flesh and garment.
Note how the bleeding woman, as strongly expected by her as Judaizer, made a statue of Jesus: without something of concrete, of tangible, as a statue or a fully fleshly carnal Christ, she couldn't live.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Post Reply