Were Jews rigid or flexible 2000 years ago?

[Secret Alias]

So you are going to claim Paul and John the Baptist were not historical persons

What I am saying is that we only have 'historical information' about Paul from Catholic texts. The Marcionites did not accept Acts so we have no 'universally acceptable' criterion for determining who Paul was. That should be hardly controversial and indeed 'conservative' as I am 'conserving' and taking an interest in the traditions outside of the dominant orthodoxy. It is reckless to identify Paul entirely with the Catholic portrait of the apostle. Even Acts seems to know of rival traditions which it goes out of its way to condemn (i.e. identifying Paul with the Egyptian rebel in Josephus etc). The Clementine Literature identifies Paul with Simon Magus. There were lots of traditions about the identity of Paul. To simply 'accept' what Acts says is tantamount to accepting the silencing of other traditions by the orthodox heresiologists. They weren't silenced because they weren't valid. These traditions challenged the Acts narrative which various heretical traditions (not just the Marcionites) denied any validity.

[Secret Alias]

The situation with Philo is only slightly better but it is nevertheless harder to argue there was any ancient controversy over the identity of Philo. There might have been. But we simply have no evidence to suggest that the identity of Philo was as controversial as that of Paul.

[MrMacSon]

One poster here repeatedly derides other posters here for being ignorant about what he states are things Jews would NEVER have thought, interpreted, or done 2000 years ago, and conversely, what "they ALWAYS would have thought/interpreted/done".

It seems to me that, given the existence of multiple sects with very different beliefs, multiple sources of 'inspired writings', multiple languages, and multiple 'saviors' who gathered a following, and the dispersion of Jews for many miles, that viewpoint just cannot be accurate. It seems to me that among the 'Jews' would have been a very wide spectrum of philosophies about God and his revelations to man.

To be more specific, the claim was made in the Philo-Jesus-angel thread that there is simply no way in the world a Jew during Philo's time would have considered the possibility that Zechariah 6 was referring to a future Messiah in some way related/similar-to a priest named Jesus.

Is there really any intellectual basis for being that dogmatic about all Jewish minds 2000 years ago?

There are many indications that Judaism was increasingly diversifying before the mid-late 1st century AD/CE.

And not just b/c of Hellenism/'Hellenization'.*

And not just different theologies in different location: Judaism was diversifying in large centers with large Jewish populations, like Alexandria*

* it is likely 'pagan' religions, such as the Egyptian mystery religions, were helping diversify 'Jewish theology', too.

[Secret Alias]

* it is likely 'pagan' religions, such as the Egyptian mystery religions, were helping diversify 'Jewish theology', too.

This would require more than a footnote in the real world of academia. There is no proof for any of this. Just wishful thinking on the part of mythicists. You can't just make the leap from 'Hellenism' to paganism. This is one of those 'say it a million times' and hope the guardians of truthfulness and integrity disappear.

[Secret Alias]

Show me some evidence of this nonsense. It is troubling that there never seems to be any need to actually demonstrate proof for these kinds of assertions which would completely rewrite the history

[MrMacSon]

You can't just make the leap from 'Hellenism' to paganism.

That is not what I was proposing.

Show me some evidence of this nonsense. It is troubling that there never seems to be any need to actually demonstrate proof for these kinds of assertions which would completely rewrite the history

Some Jews having seen paganism, or looked at paganism, or more, would not "completely rewrite the history".

For someone with demonstrably good investigative skills, and demonstrable lateral thinking, you also often show a surprising degree of 'black or white' thinking.

[MrMacSon]

Many records of those times have been destroyed" the destruction of the Great Library of Alexandria; the destruction of other significant libraries in Asia Minor (eg. the Library of Celsus in Ephesus)

[Secret Alias]

Some Jews having seen paganism, or looked at paganism, or more, would not "completely rewrite the history".

Then it should be relatively easy for you to provide a footnote for the assertion directing me to an academic book. Oh wait a minute. I remember the footnote.

1. attributable to wishful thinking and a dislike of traditional religion.

I realize that legalistic religions can be monotonous. But this is precisely their appeal. They say 'we have maintained a continuous tradition of observances. It's your job to demonstrate that isn't true. In all my readings of rabbinic material I've not encountered any support for the things you're claiming. And it's not because the sources don't mention heresies. But the heretics are basically using the same Jewish texts and traditions. Again, stop with the bluster show me the reliable primary evidence.

[Secret Alias]

Many records of those times have been destroyed" the destruction of the Great Library of Alexandria; the destruction of other significant libraries in Asia Minor (eg. the Library of Celsus in Ephesus)

Another way of saying 'I don't have any evidence.' Thanks. Continue smoking that pipe and telling me your 'personal feelings.' Really important contribution to the discussion. That's the best way to find the truth. Everyone should just 'express their feelings' ...