Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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John2
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by John2 »

Rakovsky,

By the way -and we can talk about this in another thread if you like- do you think Josephus was a prophet? He had prophetic dreams and also knew about the messianic "signs" in the OT, but he says that they pointed to the rise of Vespasian and that the Jews were wrong in their interpretation of them as referring to "one from their country."
... Josephus ... called to mind the dreams which he had dreamed in the nighttime, whereby God had signified to him beforehand both the future calamities of the Jews, and the events that concerned the Roman emperors. Now Josephus was able to give shrewd conjectures about the interpretation of such dreams as have been ambiguously delivered by God. Moreover, he was not unacquainted with the prophecies contained in the sacred books, as being a priest himself, and of the posterity of priests: and just then was he in an ecstasy; and setting before him the tremendous images of the dreams he had lately had, he put up a secret prayer to God, and said, “Since it pleaseth thee, who hast created the Jewish nation, to depress the same, and since all their good fortune is gone over to the Romans, and since thou hast made choice of this soul of mine to foretell what is to come to pass hereafter, I willingly give them my hands, and am content to live. And I protest openly that I do not go over to the Romans as a deserter of the Jews, but as a minister from thee.”

http://lexundria.com/j_bj/3.340-3.408/wst
But now, what did most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, “about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth.” The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now, this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.

http://lexundria.com/j_bj/6.271-6.315/wst
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rakovsky
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

John2 wrote:Rakovsky,

By the way -and we can talk about this in another thread if you like- do you think Josephus was a prophet? He had prophetic dreams and also knew about the messianic "signs" in the OT, but he says that they pointed to the rise of Vespasian and that the Jews were wrong in their interpretation of them as referring to "one from their country."
Hello, John!
I invite you to look at my website where I talk about the OT prophecies. One of the OT declarations was that God would set up a future Davidic leader from "among" the people. So the Jews' interpretation was correct on that account. Since the Davidic prophecy by Nathan was that God would "set up on the throne" an offspring of David and his throne would have dominion over the world, it means of course that the Messiah would have to be of some Jewish ancestry, unlike Vespasian.

Peace.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
John2
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by John2 »

Rakovsky wrote:
...Daniel's prediction about the 1st century that the Second Temple would get destroyed...
I don't see Daniel as referring to the destruction of the second Temple but rather to the desecration of it by Antiochus. Just saying that it's not cut and dried, but to each their own.
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John2
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by John2 »

Rakovsky wrote:
One of the OT declarations was that God would set up a future Davidic leader from "among" the people. So the Jews' interpretation was correct on that account. Since the Davidic prophecy by Nathan was that God would "set up on the throne" an offspring of David and his throne would have dominion over the world, it means of course that the Messiah would have to be of some Jewish ancestry, unlike Vespasian.
Well, it's not certain what "ambiguous oracle" Josephus means, but Cyrus wasn't Jewish either and Isaiah calls him Messiah:

"This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut" (Is. 45:1; cf. 2 Chron. 36:23).
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

John2 wrote:Rakovsky wrote:
One of the OT declarations was that God would set up a future Davidic leader from "among" the people. So the Jews' interpretation was correct on that account. Since the Davidic prophecy by Nathan was that God would "set up on the throne" an offspring of David and his throne would have dominion over the world, it means of course that the Messiah would have to be of some Jewish ancestry, unlike Vespasian.
Well, it's not certain what "ambiguous oracle" Josephus means, but Cyrus wasn't Jewish either and Isaiah calls him Messiah:

"This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut" (Is. 45:1; cf. 2 Chron. 36:23).
Right. Cyrus was an "anointed king", not only from a ritual probably, but also in the sense that God anointed him for the purpose.
Still, the Tanakh posed a specific concept of a Messianic descendant of David who would come from "among" the Israelites. So sure, Cyrus could be called a messiah or anointed one, but he was not "the" Messiah, the Son of David the OT was talking about. I recommend having a look at my site for specific places the OT defines this concept.
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Peace.
Last edited by rakovsky on Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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John2
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by John2 »

I need to see the link to your site again.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

John2 wrote:Rakovsky wrote:
...Daniel's prediction about the 1st century that the Second Temple would get destroyed...
I don't see Daniel as referring to the destruction of the second Temple but rather to the desecration of it by Antiochus. Just saying that it's not cut and dried, but to each their own.
Daniel 9 says:

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,

The verb here is yaš-ḥîṯ, "shall destroy".

Here is how Daniel uses this same Hebrew word "yashit" ("shall destroy") three times in the previous chapter (Dan. 8:24-25):

His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.

“Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.

The aggressor in those verses I think is said to "destroy the mighty", because the reference to their might shows an attack of destruction. The same thing goes with the "destruction" of the prosperous.

With that said, "make desolate" I think is an alternative secondary meaning of the word in question. The chapter 9 ends by saying:

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

So I think that the Temple is predicted not just to be desecrated or have its sacrifices removed, but also "desolated".

I also have a section on Dan.9 on my page.
http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

Regards.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
John2
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by John2 »

This all reminds me of 11Q13. Your point of view is making me see the Dead Sea Scrolls as even more "Christian" (in this case "Jewish-Christian," or as I tend to call it, "proto-Jewish-Christian" or pre-70 Jewish-Christian) than I already suspect. All sorts of elements you've been bringing up in our discussion are clustered here in this one document (this is the only link I could find while I'm at work but I'll check my books and search more later), including Dan. 9:26 in this part:
The ...) is that whi(ch ...all) the divine beings. The visitation is the Day of Salvation that He has decreed through Isaiah the prophet concerning all the captives, inasmuch as Scripture says, "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the messenger who announces peace, who brings good news, who announces salvation, who says to Zion "Your divine being reigns"." (Isa. 52;7) This scriptures interpretation : "the mountains" are the prophets, they who were sent to proclaim God's truth and to prophesy to all Israel. "The messengers" is the Anointed of the spirit, of whom Daniel spoke; "After the sixty-two weeks, an Anointed shall be cut off" (Dan. 9;26) The "messenger who brings good news, who announces Salvation" is the one of whom it is written; "to proclaim the year of the LORD`s favor, the day of the vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn" (Isa. 61;2)

http://www.gnosis.org/library/commelc.htm
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

Good times.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by theterminator »

i quote

So here is the passage in context, and in a good translation from the Hebrew text, in which I will add [in brackets] the portions that are missing -

Exodus 32:31-33 - 31. And Moses returned to the Lord and said: "Please! This people has committed a grave sin. They have made themselves a god of gold. 32. And now, if You forgive their sin [then I am content to remain in Your Book]. But if not, erase me now from Your Book, which You have written."

33. And the Lord said to Moses: "Whoever has sinned against Me, him I will erase from My Book!"

Verse 32 is a conditional sentence, i.e., if ... then...., and the part the I supplied [in brackets] is not an unusual suppression in a conditional sentence in the Hebrew language. The verse demonstrates one great aspect of Moses' character - he lived only for his people. If they were to be destroyed, then he had no desire for life.
Nowhere in that passage is it even implied that Moses offered himself as a sacrifice to achieve atonement for his people's sin.

It's so ironic that you say Moses nowhere implied to be a sacrifice to atone,
after you said the part in red. It means Moses was saying that if God doesn't forgive the Israelites, he wants to lose his life. Either God forgives the Israelites and lets Moses live OR God kills Moses. He is opening up the proposition, "either you let the people go or you take me."

Also, why did you not actually include the whole context, like one verse earlier, where Moses says:
30. On the next day Moses said to the people, "You yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the LORD, perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."

Why do you leave out the words "atonement for your sin" and then say there is no "atonement for his people's sin" in this story?

What do you think "making atonement for someone else's sin" means?

asked at word reference forums

http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/ ... 2.3265233/


Yes, he's saying that he will atone for the Jewish people by interceding with God. Alt. The same Hebrew word also means to appease, so "I will appease [God] over your sin" might be less confusing.
He's not stating that he will be the atonement, but that he will make one.

at least i am doing my research.


another interpretation assumes that moses did not even imply he wanted to be blotted out in the sense of being killed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblic ... h=e4c71053


in Exodus 32:31-33 - 31
the word kappara is used

in isaiah 53 ,

"This has probably occurred to you at some point, but do you know where else none of the words “pardon”, “forgiveness”, nor “atonement”, – the familiar “selicha, mechila, and kappara” – nor any derivative of them appear even once? Isaiah 53"

this then would imply "bear iniquities" has to be interpreted in a non-atoning way.


the rabbi blumenthal says about asham:

Numbers 5:8 says that the “asham” goes to the priest aside from the ram-offering – it is clear from the context that in this case the “asham” is a monetary payment 1Samuel 5:3 has the Philistines sending golden images as an “asham” The word “asham” means simply guilt – or an offering that expresses and acknowledges guilt – it doesn’t have to be a blood offering


so it seems that asham can be bloodless too.
and the meaning simply implies guilt

christians must admit that jesus was not free from sin if they want him to fit into isaiah 53
.
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