Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

[theterminator]

It does not say "when he acknowledges his own guilt". After all, the passage says that he was suffering for others not for his own sins. Verse 9 says no lawless violence or lies were found in him. So Isaiah 53 definitely cannot about the "honest" "law-abiding" Servant acknowledging his own guilt.

Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities......

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth


"despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness..."
definitely not referring to a god in flesh who willingly wants to get violated by a group of pagans.










quote:

Yet you have rejected us and abased us, and have not gone out with our armies. You made us turn back from the foe, and our enemies have gotten spoil. You have made us like sheep for slaughter, and have scattered us among the nations. You have sold your people for a trifle, demanding no high price for them. You have made us the taunt of our neighbors, the derision and scorn of those around us. You have made us a byword among the nations, a laughingstock among the peoples. All day long my disgrace is before me, and shame has covered my face at the words of the taunters and revilers, at the sight of the enemy and the avenger. All this has come upon us, yet we have not forgotten you, or been false to your covenant. Our heart has not turned back, nor have our steps departed from your way, yet you have broken us in the haunt of jackals, and covered us with deep darkness. If we had forgotten the name of our God, or spread out our hands to a strange god, would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart. Because of you we are being killed all day long, and accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Rouse yourself! Why do you sleep, O Lord? Awake, do not cast us off forever! Why do you hide your face? Why do you forget our affliction and oppression? For we sink down to the dust; our bodies cling to the ground. Rise up, come to our help. Redeem us for the sake of your steadfast love. (Ps 44:9-26)


were these guys lying and violent when they were saying that they were true to their gods word?

[theterminator]

i have a question for spin.

spin, do you see in isaiah 53 that the person who is being persecuted sees himself as offering himself as an atonement for sins?

christians want to see the suffering servant as a guilt offering . isn't a guilt offering different than a sin offering?

is rokovsky's god a limited asham offering?


Asham: Guilt Offering

A guilt offering is an offering to atone for sins of stealing things from the altar, for when you are not sure whether you have committed a sin or what sin you have committed, or for breach of trust. The Hebrew word for a guilt offering is asham. When there was doubt as to whether a person committed a sin, the person would make an asham, rather than a chatat, because bringing a chatat would constitute admission of the sin, and the person would have to be punished for it. If a person brought an asham and later discovered that he had in fact committed the sin, he would have to bring a chatat at that time. An asham was eaten by the kohanim.


the confusion is, how does all of this fit into isaiah 53 verse 10 ?

it makes absolutely no sense to me.

[theterminator]

Joseph Benson (1749–1821) was an early English Methodist minister,

Benson was a Methodist non-Jewish non-Catholic non-Lutheran minister writing his own ideas c.3000+ years after the text was written.
Do you consider him a trustworthy commentator on the scriptures?
I don't consider him a strong authority.

Nowhere does it say "if they must perish, let me perish with them". That is just what Benson is thinking up.
That is not how an "atonement for another" works. Since Moses says in verse 30 he wants to be an atonement for another, I don't agree with Benson.
[/quote]



The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."


31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

how is god to forgive their sin? according to your understanding, forgiveness would be achieved through god killing moses for atonement, but then moses says "if not...."
so does god have to kill moses a second time?

[JoeWallack]

JW:
The offending letter highlighted in yellow:



Now let's take a look at other final yods in the offending fragment. As I'm sure you know Hebrew has a number of letters with final forms and what normally distinguishes the final form is that it is longer than the regular form. Since ancient Hebrew had no punctuation this helped identify the end of words.


Joseph

Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment

[spin]

Tradition
Quoniam circumdederunt me canes multi; concilium malignantium obsedit me. Foderunt manus meas et pedes meos
See attached files

Despite the claim this is not Jerome's Vulgate. It appears to be the Vulgata Clementina. Try this: 21:17 as it is numbered.

[iskander]

Tradition is what the Jerome project shows.

[rakovsky]

It does not say "when he acknowledges his own guilt". After all, the passage says that he was suffering for others not for his own sins. Verse 9 says no lawless violence or lies were found in him. So Isaiah 53 definitely cannot about the "honest" "law-abiding" Servant acknowledging his own guilt.

Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities......

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth


"despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness..."
definitely not referring to a god in flesh who willingly wants to get violated by a group of pagans.










quote:

Yet you have rejected us and abased us, and have not gone out with our armies. You made us turn back from the foe, and our enemies have gotten spoil. You have made us like sheep for slaughter, and have scattered us among the nations. You have sold your people for a trifle, demanding no high price for them. You have made us the taunt of our neighbors, the derision and scorn of those around us. You have made us a byword among the nations, a laughingstock among the peoples. All day long my disgrace is before me, and shame has covered my face at the words of the taunters and revilers, at the sight of the enemy and the avenger. All this has come upon us, yet we have not forgotten you, or been false to your covenant. Our heart has not turned back, nor have our steps departed from your way, yet you have broken us in the haunt of jackals, and covered us with deep darkness. If we had forgotten the name of our God, or spread out our hands to a strange god, would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart. Because of you we are being killed all day long, and accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Rouse yourself! Why do you sleep, O Lord? Awake, do not cast us off forever! Why do you hide your face? Why do you forget our affliction and oppression? For we sink down to the dust; our bodies cling to the ground. Rise up, come to our help. Redeem us for the sake of your steadfast love. (Ps 44:9-26)


were these guys lying and violent when they were saying that they were true to their gods word?

Terminator,
I recommend taking discussions on Isaiah 53 to one of your threads in the Jewish Texts section about Isaiah 53.

To answer your question, the Torah, especially eg in Deuteronomy 28, had the idea that Israel's status could change in guilt and sinfulness. So in David's time, 1000 bc, the Psalm in the place you checked in bold spoke highly of the Israelites, as they were about to build the temple.

Now fast forward 400 to 500 years to Isaiah 59. God not happy. It says every Israelite lies and does violence. It is the era of Babylonian captivity and there is a different status. Then you read Isaiah in chp 53 talk about how the Servant is nonviolent and said no lies. So the Servant is not the Israelite tribe , who Isaiah sees as sinful, lying, violent.

Let's talk about this on a different thread for clarity. Here is your thread:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2219

[iskander]

JW:
The offending letter highlighted in yellow:



Now let's take a look at other final yods in the offending fragment. As I'm sure you know Hebrew has a number of letters with final forms and what normally distinguishes the final form is that it is longer than the regular form. Since ancient Hebrew had no punctuation this helped identify the end of words.


Joseph

Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment

Why you keep repeating and repeating this childish " offending " this and that? Forget the Greek Testaments they have nothing to do with your religion.
Your question has been answered already .

[iskander]

deleted by iskander,

[iskander]

For theterminator
Jesus was a heretic hated by the religious authorities of his time. Later his followers defended him by preserving his memory as they knew how. It is his message from God that only the ten words on the two tablets came from God that made the temple aristocracy hate him. Moses the Muslim and Moses the Hashemite count for nought,