Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
kennethgreifer
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:12 am
Contact:

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by kennethgreifer »

I think Judaism and Christianity both have very weak arguments about Psalm 22. Neither side really can consider anything but what their religion teaches, so no arguments really matter. People believe what their religion says because their religions are perfect, and their ancient scholars were perfect, and you know that is true because they said they were perfect. What more proof do you need? That is what you call "tradition" in any language.

Kenneth Greifer
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2146
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by spin »

kennethgreifer wrote:I think Judaism and Christianity both have very weak arguments about Psalm 22. Neither side really can consider anything but what their religion teaches, so no arguments really matter. People believe what their religion says because their religions are perfect, and their ancient scholars were perfect, and you know that is true because they said they were perfect. What more proof do you need? That is what you call "tradition" in any language.

Kenneth Greifer
We are not interested so much here in Judaism and Christianity, but what evidence we can muster for the best representation of the earliest state of the text we can identify. In fact, that is what the thread is about. The focus is on the value and significance of KAF-ALEF-RESH-YOD, not what religion teaches, not what people believe. Your high rhetoric is out of place in this thread.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
kennethgreifer
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:12 am
Contact:

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by kennethgreifer »

spin wrote:
kennethgreifer wrote:I think Judaism and Christianity both have very weak arguments about Psalm 22. Neither side really can consider anything but what their religion teaches, so no arguments really matter. People believe what their religion says because their religions are perfect, and their ancient scholars were perfect, and you know that is true because they said they were perfect. What more proof do you need? That is what you call "tradition" in any language.

Kenneth Greifer
We are not interested so much here in Judaism and Christianity, but what evidence we can muster for the best representation of the earliest state of the text we can identify. In fact, that is what the thread is about. The focus is on the value and significance of KAF-ALEF-RESH-YOD, not what religion teaches, not what people believe. Your high rhetoric is out of place in this thread.
spin,

You are right. I should not have said what I said.

Kenneth Greifer
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1594
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
And now the Hebrew candidates for the words in question:

כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י = Everyone agrees the meaning is "like a lion" and that there is no other known meaning.

כארוּ = Has no known usage or meaning outside of possible 22:17 usage. BHS finds it in 2 Manuscripts or Editions which may be Christian. Regarding the attempt to convert this word into כרוּ which means "dig" the word in question needs an א. Unfortunately for אpologists, NH 5/6 does not show any א being added to a word. Even worse for Apologists, it is extant for known Waw verses Yod confusion:
  • Psalm 11:1 נוּדִו) נוּדִי)

    Psalm 12:6 עֲנִוים) עֲנִיִּים)

    Psalm 18:33 דַּרְכִּו) דַּרְכִּי)
Regarding then the question just at this point, which is more likely:

א) For the word in question at NH 5/6 an Aleph was added to the word כרוּ

בָּ) For the word in question at NH 5/6 the final letter was written as Waw but should be read as Yod because Yod is more likely original

Evidence
  • 1) In general, Waw verses Yod confusion is much more common then Aleph addition.

    2) Specifically, for NH 5/6, we have three known instances of Waw/Yod confusion and no instances of Aleph added.

    3) 1) and 2) are supported by the difficulty of our own effort to determine the final letter in question.
Conclusion = based on just the above:

בָּ) For the word in question at NH 5/6 the final letter was written as Waw but should be read as Yod because Yod is more likely original

Is more likely.


Joseph

Skeptical Textual Criticism
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1594
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Now for the candidate כרוּ which according to BHS is in 3-10 Manuscripts/Editions. Regarding the Hebrew external evidence it is an inferior choice to the other two candidates as it has no early Hebrew support and is not found in any Masorah. When we look at the usage of the word in The Jewish Bible we see a dominant meaning of literally "digging" and a few figurative usages which also refer to digging:

Genesis 26:25
And he builded an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac’s servants digged a well.


25 וַיִּ֧בֶן שָׁ֣ם מִזְבֵּ֗חַ וַיִּקְרָא֙ בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהוָ֔ה וַיֶּט־שָׁ֖ם אָהֳלֹ֑ו וַיִּ'''כְרוּ'''־שָׁ֥ם עַבְדֵי־יִצְחָ֖ק בְּאֵֽר׃


Genesis 50:5
My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again.
5 אָבִ֞י הִשְׁבִּיעַ֣�*ִי לֵאמֹ֗ר הִ�*ֵּ֣ה אָ�*ֹכִי֮ מֵת֒ בְּקִבְרִ֗י אֲשֶׁ֨ר '''כָּרִ֤י'''תִי לִי֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ כְּ�*ַ֔עַן שָׁ֖מָּה תִּקְבְּרֵ֑�*ִי וְעַתָּ֗ה אֶֽעֱלֶה־�*ָּ֛א וְאֶקְבְּרָ֥ה אֶת־אָבִ֖י וְאָשֽׁוּבָה׃


Exodus 21:33
And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;
33 וְכִֽי־יִפְתַּ֨ח אִ֜ישׁ בֹּ֗ור אֹ�*ו כִּֽי־יִ'''כְרֶ֥ה''' אִ֛ישׁ בֹּ֖ר וְלֹ֣א יְכַסֶּ֑�*ּוּ וְ�*ָֽפַל־שָׁ֥מָּה שֹּׁ֖ור אֹ֥ו חֲמֹֽור׃


Numbers 21:18
The princes digged the well, the nobles of the people digged it, by the direction of the lawgiver, with their staves. And from the wilderness they went to Mattanah:
18 בְּאֵ֞ר חֲפָר֣וּהָ שָׂרִ֗ים '''כָּר֙וּ'''הָ֙ �*ְדִיבֵ֣י הָעָ֔ם בִּמְחֹקֵ֖ק בְּמִשְׁעֲ�*ֹתָ֑ם וּמִמִּדְבָּ֖ר מַתָּ�*ָֽה׃


2 Chronicles 16:14
And they buried him in his own sepulchres, which he had made for himself in the city of David, and laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds of spices prepared by the apothecaries’ art: and they made a very great burning for him.
14 וַיִּקְבְּרֻ֣הוּ בְקִבְרֹתָ֗יו אֲשֶׁ֣ר '''כָּֽרָה'''־לֹו֮ בְּעִ֣יר דָּוִיד֒ וַיַּשְׁכִּיבֻ֗הוּ בַּמִּשְׁכָּב֙ אֲשֶׁ֤ר מִלֵּא֙ בְּשָׂמִ֣ים וּזְ�*ִ֔ים מְרֻקָּחִ֖ים בְּמִרְקַ֣חַת מַעֲשֶׂ֑ה וַיִּשְׂרְפוּ־לֹ֥ו שְׂרֵפָ֖ה גְּדֹולָ֥ה עַד־לִמְאֹֽד׃ פ


Psalm 7:15
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.


16 בֹּ֣ור '''כָּ�*רָֽה''' וַֽיַּחְפְּרֵ֑הוּ וַ֝יִּפֹּ֗ל בְּשַׁ֣חַת יִפְעָֽל׃


Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 זֶ֤בַח וּמִ�*ְחָ֨ה׀ לֹֽא־חָפַ֗צְתָּ אָ�*זְ�*ַיִם '''כָּרִ֣יתָ''' לִּ֑י עֹולָ֥ה וַ֝חֲטָאָ֗ה לֹ֣א שָׁאָֽלְתָּ׃


Psalm 57:6
They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down: they have digged a pit before me, into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves. Selah.
7 רֶ֤שֶׁת׀ הֵכִ֣י�*וּ לִפְעָמַי֮ כָּפַ֪ף �*ַ֫פְשִׁ֥י '''כָּר֣וּ''' לְפָ�*ַ֣י שִׁיחָ֑ה �*ָפְל֖וּ בְתֹוכָ֣הּ סֶֽלָה׃


Psalm 94:13
That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.


13 לְהַשְׁקִ֣יט לֹ֖ו מִ֣ימֵי רָ֑ע עַ֤ד יִ'''כָּרֶ֖ה''' לָרָשָׁ֣ע שָֽׁחַת׃


Psalm 119:85
The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.


85 '''כָּֽרוּ'''־לִ֣י זֵדִ֣ים שִׁיחֹ֑ות אֲ֝שֶׁ֗ר לֹ֣א כְתֹורָתֶֽךָ׃


Proverbs 16:27
An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire.


27 אִ֣ישׁ בְּ�*לִיַּעַל '''כֹּרֶ֣ה''' רָעָ֑ה וְעַל־שְׂ֝פָ֯ת֗יֹו כְּאֵ֣שׁ צָרָֽבֶת׃


Proverbs 26:27
Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.


27 '''כֹּֽרֶה'''־שַּׁ�*חַת בָּ֣הּ יִפֹּ֑ל וְגֹ֥לֵ֥ל אֶ֝בֶן אֵלָ֥יו תָּשֽׁוּב׃


Jeremiah 18:20
Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.
20 הַיְשֻׁלַּ֤ם תַּֽחַת־טֹובָה֙ רָעָ֔ה כִּֽי־'''כָר֥וּ''' שׁוּחָ֖ה לְ�*ַפְשִׁ֑י זְכֹ֣ר׀ עָמְדִ֣י לְפָ�*ֶ֗יךָ לְדַבֵּ֤ר עֲלֵיהֶם֙ טֹובָ֔ה לְהָשִׁ֥יב אֶת־חֲמָתְךָ֖ מֵהֶֽם׃

Version: Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia : with Westminster 4.0 MorphologyThe King James Version ApocryphaThe King James VersionNestle-Aland Greek New Testament, 27th ed., with GRAMCORD(TM) Greek New Testament Alpha Morphological DatabaseNestle-Aland Greek New Testament, 27th ed., with GRAMCORD(TM) Greek New Testament Alpha Morphological Database and McReynolds English InterlinearThe New Revised Standard VersionSeptuaginta: Morphologically Tagged Edition
Style: References OnlyReferences and Text in One ColumnReferences and Text in Two Columns
Sort in Canonical Order

JW:
In using these usages of ''KRH'' note that Literal use in Narrative is superior to Figurative use in helping to determine primary meaning and semantic range. Figurative use introduces idioms and unusual thoughts that expand the possible use of the word, only under specific circumstances, beyond what it could be used for in direct Narrative.

Summary of usages:

Narrative: Genesis 26:25, Genesis 50:5, Exodus 21:33, Numbers 21:18, Chronicles 16:14

Figurative: Psalm 7:15, Psalm 40:6, Psalm 57:6, Psalm 94:13, Psalm 119:85, Proverbs 16:27, Proverbs 26:27, Jeremiah 18:20

For our best Category of usage to determine normal meaning, Narrative, we have 5 uses. These 5 usages have the following significant, shared characteristics:
  • 1) Digging (Action)

    2) Earth (Object of the Action)

    3) Creation of something (well, grave, pit) (Result of the Action)
As we exand the usage to Figurative we have the following significant, shared characteristic for the usages:

1) In 6 uses the connected literal Action is Digging since pits are mentioned. In two uses, Psalm 40:6 and Proverbs 16:27, it's unclear if the connected literal action is digging since there is no object such as "pit" used, which is commonly associated with digging.

For Psalm 40:6 and Proverbs 16:27 let's consider if the context indicates an Action clearly preferable to digging:

Psalm 40:6
"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

Note that "opened" is the translation here for the offending word. The sense seems to be enabling the ears to hear to allow understanding. The connected literal action would apparently be done to an ear to enable hearing. The most common word here to accomplish this result would be "remove". "Remove" would relate to all three significant charateristics of the Narrative meaning:

1) Digging action to remove obstruction.

2) Dirt (Earth) as Object of action.

3) Creation of hearing as Result.

Proverbs 16:27
"An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire."

This is more of a straight figurative description so there is no clear connected literal Action or Object. There is the characteristic of Creation though (evil).

In summary the usage of KRH in the Jewish Bible indicates a Primary meaning of digging through earth to create something. Most figurative uses refer to this Literal meaning and while there appear to be two figurative uses that lack references to some of the Literal significant characteristics of meaning neither seems to refer to a different connected literal action.

The English "pierced" is not within the lexical range of the word usage above since "pierced" has a destructive meaning as opposed to a creative meaning and that is why there are separate Hebrew words for "pierced" = Translating כרוּ as "pierced" is not just wrong but dishonest (if you are competent in Hebrew).

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... V;NASB;NIV


Joseph

Skeptical Textual Criticism
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

JoeWallack wrote: Unfortunately for אpologists, NH 5/6 does not show any א being added to a word. Even worse for Apologists, it is extant for known Waw verses Yod confusion:
  • Psalm 11:1 נוּדִו) נוּדִי)

    Psalm 12:6 עֲנִוים) עֲנִיִּים)

    Psalm 18:33 דַּרְכִּו) דַּרְכִּי)
Regarding then the question just at this point, which is more likely:

א) For the word in question at NH 5/6 an Aleph was added to the word כרוּ

בָּ) For the word in question at NH 5/6 the final letter was written as Waw but should be read as Yod because Yod is more likely original

Evidence
  • 1) In general, Waw verses Yod confusion is much more common then Aleph addition.
You have shown 3 cases of waw v yod confusion.
On my website, I listed numerous more cases of aleph addition than that.
Further, there are nonDDS rabbinical Masoretic manuscripts that also have KARU. Do those have waw v yod confusion too, and is that confusion done in the same or different places while leaving KARU in Psalm 22 consistent as KARU?

When you say there is confusion, does this mean everyone agrees that the waw is definitely a yod and vice verse or is that also unclear because we are dealing with a manuscript in not great quality and the yods are only slightly shorter and the heads slightlY wider, leading to confusion only by the reader?

2) Specifically, for NH 5/6, we have three known instances of Waw/Yod confusion and no instances of Aleph added.

3) 1) and 2) are supported by the difficulty of our own effort to determine the final letter in question. [/list]

Conclusion = based on just the above:

בָּ) For the word in question at NH 5/6 the final letter was written as Waw but should be read as Yod because Yod is more likely original

Is more likely.
Unfortunately, that is not the only relevant evidence before drawing the conclusion.
You also have to consider the existence of numerous Masoretic texts saying karu and kru,
as well as the grammar and poetic structure that want a verb
As well as the aquila and lxx and early christian translations.

If the only evidence at hand was that kaaru is not a known version of kru, that sometimes the tanakh doubles a vowel and adds an aleph, and that N.Hever definitely, clearly, frequently, objectively confuses yod and waw, then the conclusion would be that it's more likely a mispelling.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

JoeWallack wrote:JW:
Now for the candidate כרוּ which according to BHS is in 3-10 Manuscripts/Editions. Regarding the Hebrew external evidence it is an inferior choice to the other two candidates as it has no early Hebrew support and is not found in any Masorah.

]
When you say Masorah, do you mean Masoretic texts? Because kru is found in two to three of them.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

Let's say sometimes in a book I end words with -our instead of -or, but usually I use the American spelling. Labour vs labor. But there is no known instance of doubling a certain word like color as colour, and I have a practice of confusing the us with vs. If colovr is a known word, then based on this evidence, when I wrote colour, did I intend to mean the American color or colovr? We would not be certain either way, because adding us to -or words and misspelling u as v were both known practices.

When you add in the other evidence, the uncertainty continues.
I don't have a strong opinion, but I do think the poetic pairing demands a verb As I explained on kens thread.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

JoeWallack wrote:JW:
Now for the candidate כרוּ which according to BHS is in 3-10 Manuscripts/Editions. Regarding the Hebrew external evidence it is an inferior choice to the other two candidates as it has no early Hebrew support and is not found in any Masorah. When we look at the usage of the word in The Jewish Bible we see a dominant meaning of literally "digging" and a few figurative usages which also refer to digging:

Genesis 26:25

JW:
In using these usages of ''KRH'' note that Literal use in Narrative is superior to Figurative use in helping to determine primary meaning and semantic range. Figurative use introduces idioms and unusual thoughts that expand the possible use of the word, only under specific circumstances, beyond what it could be used for in direct Narrative.
]
Ok.
Psalms are commonly poetry and figurative.
PSam 22 has alot of figurative expressions around the passage to describe real things.
Are those literal bulls with literal horns?
No they are real human enemies with real sharp weapons.
Also, the next verse that uses karah, Psalm 40 is figurative. Proverbs you cited as having figurative.
Conclusion: the weapons' form of attack is also described figuratively.

A normal sword attack is a single deep strike. Digging is repeated smaller strikes. Builders use digging. Digging is an interesting figurative expression then.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

JoeWallack wrote: For Psalm 40:6 and Proverbs 16:27 let's consider if the context indicates an Action clearly preferable to digging:

Psalm 40:6
"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou [KARAH - gouged]"

Note that "opened" is the translation here for the offending word.
That's a common metaphorical translation. The LXX took karah in the sense of "prepared" AFAIK here.

The sense seems to be enabling the ears to hear to allow understanding. The connected literal action would apparently be done to an ear to enable hearing.
I agree.
The most common word here to accomplish this result would be "remove".
The ears are not "removed" to create hearing.
Another possibility:
God gouged or dug out the ears to make them as even greater holes than before. David maybe wasn't getting the message enough, so God gouged holes in his head, figurative ears.
Also check Judges 5 where a lady drives nail(s) into someone's temples. That would be an example of digging figurative "ears" into someone.
Could David be thinking of using nails to create physical ears and piercing holes in someone? That would seem speculative, but it's logical.



Proverbs 16:27
"An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire."

This is more of a straight figurative description so there is no clear connected literal Action or Object. There is the characteristic of Creation though (evil).
It's figurative, and the concept would be the evil being someplace below and the ungodly man digging it out, excavating it.
If you find a mound of gold, you dig into it to get the gold out. This is the opposite of gold. It's a mound of evil and the ungodly dig into it.

Applying the comparison to Psalm 22, the enemies dig into the hands.
In summary the usage of KRH in the Jewish Bible indicates a Primary meaning of digging through earth to create something.
OK, although, I'm not sure "create" is the best word because of the connotations, considering that it's not building. Rather, the goal is carving out a hole.

In Psalm 22, the figurative bulls and lion's mouth would be digging through the hands and feet in order to create holes in them.
This explanation makes metaphorical sense.
The English "pierced" is not within the lexical range of the word usage above since "pierced" has a destructive meaning as opposed to a creative meaning
Digging creates a hole through destruction.

In Psalm 22 and Psalm 40, David's hands and ears already exist. Rather, in both cases someone is gouging/digging into them in order to make holes in them.

Even in case we go with "like a lion", the common understanding in Judaism, eg. the Targums and Rashi, is that this expression signifies that the enemies are acting destructively and harmfully on the limbs.

I love to confirm whether the Yalkut Shimoni interprets this to mean "pierced" in the online Hebrew I pointed to earlier in the thread. In Yalkuth Shimoni they connect “many dogs have encompassed me” (using a midrashic principle called "binyan ab m'shna ketubim") with the Book of Esther, commenting on which, Rabbi Nehemiah said:
"They pierced my hands and feet". ... In English, “they have pierced my hands and my feet”—Rabbi Nehemiah quotes it this way, and the reading of “pierced” was accepted by ancient rabbis.
https://www.moriel.org/online-sermons/
It (or part of it) is online in Hebrew here:
http://www.sefaria.org/Yalkut_Shimoni_on_Torah?lang=bi
And here
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/11520
and that is why there are separate Hebrew words for "pierced" = Translating כרוּ as "pierced" is not just wrong but dishonest
Joe,
Normal translation work involves taking expressions in an original language and finding an expression in the target language that fits the context. As shown by your own example of "opened", the word used in normal translation is not always the closest literal one, especially involving figurative poetry.

Is piercing an acceptable expression for the action of digging into something? Yes.
Crossings, by Jeffrey Birch - 2014
He reached for the shovel and began unearthing whatever was in the hole. Fifteen minutes later, the shovel pierced the body. “I hit something. Jesus, it's soft.
The Bookseller's Sonnets, Andi Rosenthal - 2010.
Dust filled her throat as the shovel pierced the dry earth.
ELEMENTS OF INORGANIC CHEMISTRY, THOMAS, GRAHAM - 1858
... namely, common salt, carbonate and sulphate of soda, — which are removed from the boiling liquor by means of a shovel pierced with holes like a colander.
In that example above, things were the other way around: Someone pierced the shovel, creating holes.
A place for all to play - Free Press Newspapers Mobile, Jul 21, 2016 -
Brittney Kaluzny was all smiles as the tip of her golden shovel pierced the ground
Hornet Stadium - Sacramento State Athletics
http://www.hornetsports.com/sports/fball/HornetStadium
The Surge hosted the Montreal Machine in a preseason game March 14, barely three months after the first shovel pierced dirt in January.
[/quote][/quote]

The word pierced is even more apt, because
(A) If you check the other uses of Karah in Hebrew, you will find that their normal tools for karah are pointed staffs and scepters, not broad bladed shovels.
(B) The tools that the enemies and bulls in Psalm 22 use are swords and horns and teeth. The action of those instruments on the body are piercing.
(C) Even if we don't go with Karah, but with KARI, we still have the fact that the standard nonChristian Jewish interpretation for the last 1800 years or so of this expression KARI is that the enemies are attacking and biting like a lion. What is the mutual way a lion attacks that enemies armed with swords and a lion's mouth attacks too? Through "piercing".
I would love to get Yalkut Shimoni translated on this.
(D) Psalm 22 and Zechariah 12 say that the people come to God because of the one(s) who were gouged/pierced. In the Davidic Psalm 22, the assembled enemies armed with pointed weapons attack the hands like a lion(kari) or gouge(karu) the narrator's hands, and David's assembly comes to faith in the Lord. This is a messianic achievement. Christian and rabbinical traditions agree Zecharian 12 refers to Messianic events (for the rabbis, it's Messiah Ben Joseph), and then due to the "pierced" (daqaru) one, the Jews come to look on the Lord faithfully. The word in that passage is in fact the normal Hebrew word for "piercing". Personally, I find these two passages to be referring to a related theme, but I recognize that rabbinical tradition does not.

My own conclusion is that "like a lion" and "gouged" are the best translations for Psalm 22 because I tend to prefer a literal translation, and that "pierced" is weaker, but not wrong.
Last edited by rakovsky on Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
Post Reply