Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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iskander
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by iskander »

james_C wrote:
A man was surrounded by enemies with swords; they were like a hungry lion's mouth;
maybe they were doing communion eucharist?
maybe they were drinking blood and eating flesh of the victim?
There were no Christians yet when this psalm was written , those enemies were dogs biting people with their teeth.
People were still killing innocent animals to atone for their sins: they put the hands on the animal and transferred their guilt to it and then the guilty animal was killed to placate the demiurge. The men were now forgiven by the merciful YHWH
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JoeWallack
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
PSALM 22:17: CIRCLING
AROUND THE PROBLEM AGAIN
KRISTIN M. SWENSON
kswenson@mail1.vcu.edu
Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, VA 23284-2021

In a footnote Swenson writes:

"4 By Vall’s admission, Aquila’s Vorlage may well have been very close to the MT; the instances in which it differed commonly involved “the confusion of similarly shaped letters” such as w and y (Vall, “Psalm 22:17B,” 56). This supports retaining the MT and undermines Vall’s argument
for an emendation that involves not only changing a consonant but also metathesis. I do agree with Vall, though, that “the text could easily have been corrupted long before any of the ancient versions were made” (ibid.)."

Aquila of Sinope
In Jewish writings he is referred to as עקילס (Aquilas). Aquila's version is said to have been used in place of the Septuagint in Greek-speaking synagogues. The Christians generally disliked it[citation needed], alleging that it rendered the Messianic passages incorrectly, but Jerome and Origen speak in its praise. Origen incorporated it in his Hexapla.[5]
An indication that Aquila was not Scribe level and did confuse "yod" and "waw" and could very well have done so for the offending word.


Joseph

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iskander
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by iskander »

rakovsky wrote:Dear Joe,

The fact that you pointed out how the yods have a wider top usually than the waws, and the fact that you watched the whole Dr. Michael Brown video even though it turned out you knew the info anyway suggests to me you have a sincere interest in this topic. I like that.

I am fascinated in it too, and ultimately the main thing for me is understanding the passage, rather than one of the readings being right.

My own best guess is that David is actually implying both things in the passage - that the narrator's hands were gouged by the enemies like a lion. One of the reasons for this is because of the rabbinical commentaries. Over the last 2000 years, they generally have said that the enemies were, like a lion, attacking, biting, or otherwise harming the hands. In fact, even if David were to use one word (eg. "gouge" and not "like a lion"), I still think he is implying the other concept (eg. both attacking / biting / gouging and "like a lion"), as both can be found in the rabbinic commentaries and text variants.

Regards.
That is generous and informative, but the reality is that you will be kept engaged by repetitive " offending " verses from some place or another and some " nonsense" from some place or another. You have explained your position very well .
Cheers :cheers:
james_C
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by james_C »

Interesting connection to the binding and nailing of the limbs at the crucifixion, BTW.
do we even know if nails were used?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularout ... ig-part-8/

its all a guess.
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spin
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by spin »

As Rakovsky has ducked and weaved so frequently regarding the difficulties between WAWs and YODs in this fragment of Ps 22 here are a few more images. This time in context. Look at them and decide which is a WAW and which is a YOD. What in the image indicates your choice?

Image

and

Image

Making the choice is not simply a matter of size and shape, but requires the reader to know what s/he is looking at. Given the easily demonstrable difficulties deciding between these two letters, you cannot make the choice simply by appearances. Tendencies are not fixed rules, so whether the WAW tends to be longer or not it does not exclude anomalous YODs. There are several in this fragment.
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spin
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by spin »

Psalm 22 divides into two sections, a lament (verses 1-18) and the psalmist's acceptance of God (verses 19-31). The second part needs little analysis here, for it is the nature of the lament that is in question here, whether something actually physically happens to the narrator or not. So let's turn to it and see how the lament works.

TextComment
1-2: topic of the lament: God seems far away so the psalmist feels abandoned
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.
.
This isolation is the state the informs the whole lament, the psalmist's isolation from God.
3-5: acknowledgement of God's involvement in the past
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
.
The fact that God has helped Israel in the past seems to exacerbate the psalmist's state of alienation,
as seen in the contrast that follows...
6-8: narrator feels scorned and mocked
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
.
The psalmist feels like a worm, not an actor in events. He seems unable to respond to the mockery
and taunts he receives from his enemies.
9-11: God's involvement in the psalmist's past and petition to God
9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.
.
He acknowledges God's role in his life, which probably helps to underline his alienation,
leading to the petition for God not to be far away, don't abandon him.
The petition marks a key point in the psalm as the narrator acknowledge's
his dependence on God.
12-13: his enemies surround him and threaten him
12 Many bulls encompass me;
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.
.
The psalmist transforms his enemies into aggressive beasts, though we must remember
that they are human aggressors. These aggressors have not as yet harmed the psalmist
in any physical way: they surround him, the show their open mouths, which is a metaphor
for their threats.
14-15: resultant inner turmoil, lack of strength, feeling of being left to die
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.
.
Poured out like water, his vigor, his strength is dried up and he is unable to do anything,
leaving him feeling as good as dead.
16-18: reiteration of his enemy's threatening behavior
16 For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me like a lion
my hands and feet—17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.
.
he returns to his human enemies all around him, their threats, their mockeries
and their eyeing of his property which they are already divvying up in their heads.

So, not a trace of physical harm to the narrator is displayed in the lament section on Psalm 22. God hasn't really abandoned him. He has just had a lapse of faith, but once he has worked through it, he is ready to acknowledge "the Lord is my shepherd."

As to verse 16 and "like a lion", I don't know. Using it as a descriptor of the way the group of evil doers encircle the narrator works for me, but that may just be another case of modern eisegesis. The hands and legs can go with being able to count his bones, but, as I said, I don't know: the evidence seems in the at "like a lion" is the closest we can get to an original text. The verse has been problematic since antiquity and no christian cultural theft of Hebrew literature will change that.

This is a work written before the christian era, dealing with issues that Jews found themselves facing. That makes the work reflective, not prophetic. It is only when the text's original significance is lost to its readership that it becomes free to be reinterpreted. We can see this process of reinterpretation in the pesharim from Qumran. It is not strange that christians who had little cultural history with the Hebrew literature would also reinterpret them for their own religious ends. But the earliest borrowers saw nothing in Ps 22:16 to borrow despite the fact that the psalm was mined for Jesus' last words and the division of his clothing. They did not interpret the verse as the narrator being pierced. That was left for later readers using bad translations.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by kennethgreifer »

spin,

I have said a few times that the writer could be saying "You have put me to the dust of death because dogs have surrounded me, a company of evildoers has surrounded me like a lion. My hands and my feet I will count. All of my bones they will see..."

Earlier he said he was a worm and not a man. Poetically, he could be saying he is now feeling stronger, so they are surrounding him like a lion, but he is weak and near death also, so he prays to G-d for help.

A worm does not have hands, feet, or bones, but a lion does. Also, counting your bones does not make much sense.

I have more details, but not now.

Kenneth Greifer
http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/
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JoeWallack
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Now let's go with Textual Criticism. In the original Hebrew:

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia
The Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, abbreviated as BHS or rarely BH4, is an edition of the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible as preserved in the Leningrad Codex, and supplemented by masoretic and text-critical notes. It is the fourth edition in the Biblia Hebraica series started by Rudolf Kittel and is published by the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft (German Bible Society) in Stuttgart.
This is generally considered the authoritative reference guide. Note though that the text is simply a reproduction of the Leningrad Codex and not a critical reconstruction. The Textual Criticism value is in the related notes.
כִּ֥י סְבָב֗וּנִי כְּלָ֫בִ֥ים עֲדַ֣ת מְ֭רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי׃
[22:17]

Note that BHS has כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י but again, this is only because that is what the Leningrad Codex (LC) has. Note especially that BHS is and has always been, a Christian product.

and related Text Critical notes:
b pc Mss Edd כארוּ, 2 Mss Edd כָּרוּ cf
  • pc = few

    Mss = Manuscripts

    Edd = Editions (Print)

    2 = 2

    Mss Edd = Manuscripts and Editions
Numbers for the candidates:
Total Hebrew manuscripts = The total in the BHS inventory seems to be a closely guarded secret for no apparent reason. It seems to be based primarily on two studies (Christians) a few hundred years ago that each identified 600 to 700 known Manuscripts but which both failed to indicate how many of which were looked at for the issue at hand. As Christians I would guess they did try to find any evidence of a reading other than כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י . Clearly כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י is the dominant Masoretic reading but I can only guess than that it is found in hundreds of Manuscripts. Note also that כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י is also in all of the most authoritative Masoretic Manuscripts.

כארוּ (possible NH/5-6 reading) claimed by Christians to be in two either Manuscripts or Editions. Of course I would want to see these with my own ayins and I also wonder if they were Christian productions.

כָּרוּ = Hebrew for "dig". Per BHS found in 3-10 either Manuscripts or Editions. Same reservations as above.


Joseph

Review of Fundamentals of New Testament Textual Criticism by Stanley E. Porter and Andrew W. Pitts
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JoeWallack
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by JoeWallack »

spin wrote: So, not a trace of physical harm to the narrator is displayed in the lament section on Psalm 22. God hasn't really abandoned him. He has just had a lapse of faith, but once he has worked through it, he is ready to acknowledge "the Lord is my shepherd."

As to verse 16 and "like a lion", I don't know. Using it as a descriptor of the way the group of evil doers encircle the narrator works for me, but that may just be another case of modern eisegesis. The hands and legs can go with being able to count his bones, but, as I said, I don't know: the evidence seems in the at "like a lion" is the closest we can get to an original text. The verse has been problematic since antiquity and no christian cultural theft of Hebrew literature will change that.
JW:
If you read the Psalms here as they were intended, as a related group of pleas/laments, rather than a Christian proof-text, then 17 has already introduced the lion and how lions threaten:

17
1 Hear the right, O Jehovah, attend unto my cry; Give ear unto my prayer, that goeth not out of feigned lips.

2 Let my sentence come forth from thy presence; Let thine eyes look upon equity.

3 Thou hast proved my heart; thou hast visited me in the night; Thou hast tried me, and findest nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.

4 As for the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the ways of the violent.

5 My steps have held fast to thy paths, My feet have not slipped.

6 I have called upon thee, for thou wilt answer me, O God: Incline thine ear unto me, [and] hear my speech.

7 Show thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them that take refuge [in thee ]From those that rise up [against them].

8 Keep me as the apple of the eye; Hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

9 From the wicked that oppress me, My deadly enemies, that compass me about.

10 They are inclosed in their own fat: With their mouth they speak proudly.

11 They have now compassed us in our steps; They set their eyes to cast [us] down to the earth.

12 He is like a lion that is greedy of his prey, And as it were a young lion lurking in secret places.

13 Arise, O Jehovah, Confront him, cast him down: Deliver my soul from the wicked by thy sword;

14 From men by thy hand, O Jehovah, From men of the world, whose portion is in [this] life, And whose belly thou fillest with thy treasure: They are satisfied with children, And leave the rest of their substance to their babes.

15 As for me, I shall behold thy face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with [beholding] thy form.
JW:
Seems to be a lot of parallels here with 22. I don't think it's coincidental. The lion is used for poetic comparison, threatening with its trademark roar. When we get to 22 the author has already indicated the what and how of "like a lion", threatening by roaring ("With their mouth they speak proudly"). "Like a lion" is suggestive of a verb rather than a noun. Having the hands and feet threatened seems literally odd but parallels from a figurative standpoint with "hands" and "feet".


Joseph

Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment
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Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Masorah
By long tradition, a ritual Sefer Torah (Torah scroll) could contain only the Hebrew consonantal text – nothing added, nothing taken away. The Masoretic codices however, provide extensive additional material, called masorah, to show correct pronunciation and cantillation, protect against scribal errors, and annotate possible variants.
There are three main general Hebrew Masorahs:
  • Tiberian, considered the best. Does not show variation for the word in question.

    Babylonian, next best. The Tiberian has a list of differences between the Tiberian and Babylonian Masorahs and does not show any difference here. The implication then is that the Babylonian Masorah did not show variation here either.

    Palestinian/Jerusalem. Unknown what it showed for the word in question.
There are a few medieval Masorahs that do show K)RW as a variant. Most say though that where K)RW is written it should be read (understood) as K)RY (like a lion). None say it should be read/understood as anything else and none give any other meaning to it. This then is probably the best support K)RW has in Hebrew, a few Masorahs list it as a variant. Again though, since there is never identification of K)RW having a meaning different then "like a lion", this supports an explanation of some ancient confusion between the Waw and Yod for this letter.


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