Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

Question for Joe:
Do you think the enemies in Psalm 22 are foreign, Israelite, or both?
Psalm 3 says it is dedicated to the time David was chased by Abimelech. Psalm 22 is also about persecution and Davidic. In his lifetime, David also fought foreigners.

7 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
8 All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head:

Are "the people" the Israelite people?

13 Many bulls have encompassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Here is Bashan:
Image

14 They open wide their mouth against me, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
17 a congregation of evil-doers have inclosed me [like a lion they gouge?] my hands and feet
22 Save me from the lion's mouth
GENESIS 49:9
Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?”
Speaking of the enemies, vv. 18-19 say: they look and gloat over me. They part my garments among them

So the "congregation (in Hebrew, adat] of evil-doers" has "encompassed" the narrator and "look" at him. This does not use the same word for the congregation ("qahal") though that David praises the Lord to in vv. 22-23. The two gatherings, at which David suffers and then praises the Lord respectively, are different.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16243
13 Great bulls have surrounded me; the mighty ones of Bashan encompassed me.
14 They opened their mouth against me [like] a tearing, roaring lion
...
17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.
...
21 Save my soul from the sword, my only one from the grip of the dog.
22 Save me from the lion's mouth, as from the horns of the wild oxen You answered me.
While the author is speaking of an [understatement]imaginary situation [/understatement] note that all of the actions associated with a specific animal are literal actions of that animal. There is no figurative action associated with a specific animal here. If we try out כְרוּ (dig) for verse 17 we have:

Dogs/evildoers dig my hands and feet.

We've seen that in The Jewish Bible when this word is used literally it always refers to digging dirt to create something. So dogs dug hands/feet to create ...? There's no way to get a literal action of dogs here that fits the literal meaning of the word. This is primary. The secondary try is to search for a neighboring meaning of the word (like you are doing) that would make some sense. Even if you found one it would still fail the preceding primary test. The problem with "pierced" is that it still falls outside of the range of figurative usage in The Jewish Bible because "pierced" is destructive, not creative and in human context refers to injury.
rakovsky wrote: Psalm 40:6
"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou [KARAH - gouged]"
JW:
The ears are the subject here. There is no injury/destruction to the ears. In your word, it's the "opposite".
rakovsky wrote: I love to confirm whether the Yalkut Shimoni interprets this to mean "pierced" in the online Hebrew I pointed to earlier in the thread. In Yalkuth Shimoni they connect “many dogs have encompassed me” (using a midrashic principle called "binyan ab m'shna ketubim") with the Book of Esther, commenting on which, Rabbi Nehemiah said:
"They pierced my hands and feet". ... In English, “they have pierced my hands and my feet”—Rabbi Nehemiah quotes it this way, and the reading of “pierced” was accepted by ancient rabbis.
https://www.moriel.org/online-sermons/
It (or part of it) is online in Hebrew here:
http://www.sefaria.org/Yalkut_Shimoni_on_Torah?lang=bi
And here
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/11520
JW:
Now that you mention it I'm not aware of any Jewish source that includes "pierced" within the lexical range of כרוּ.

BDB:
† I. כָּרָה verb. Dig (NH id.; Aram כְּרָא, Eth. ከረየ: Ar. كَرَا (c. و and esp. ي Dozy:ii. 461); Syr. ܟܪܳܐ is be short, cut off (i.e. rounded off ?), Ar. كُرَهُ ball; Targum. כְּרֵי heap Dalm:Gr. 109; Syr. ܟܰܪܝܳܳܐ Mish. כרי id.; As. karê large vessels for holding corn, etc., Dl:HWB 353, cf. kirû (dub.) Wkl:Tel Am. Vocab.; Ba:ZMG 1887, 615 conjectures be round as orig √ mng., and comp. Ar. كَرِيَتِ, السَّاقُ the leg is round);-Qal Pf. 3 ms. כָּרָה 2 Ch 16:14, Psalm 7:16; 2 ms. כָּרִיתָ Psalm 40:7; 1 s. בָּרִיתִי Gn 50:5; 3 pl. כָּרוּ Je 18:20 + 3 t.; sf כָּרוּהָ Nu 21:18; Impf. 3 ms. יִכְרֶה Ex 21:33; 3 mpl. וַיִּכְרוּ Gn 26:25; Pt. כֹּרֶה Pr 16:27, 26:27; -dig a grave, קֶבֶר Gn 50:5 (J), cf. 2 Ch 16:14; a well, בְּאֵר Gn 26:25 (J), Nu 21:18 (song in JE); a pit, בּוֹר Ex 21:33; fig. of plotting against others Psalm 7:16; so sq. שׁוּחָה Je 18:20, 18:22, sq. שִׁיחָה 57:7, 119:85; sq. שַׁחַת Pr 26:27; hence כֹּרֶה רָעָה Pr 16:27 one digging a calamity; אָזְנַיִם כ׳ לִי Psalm 40:7 ears hast thou dug (with allusion to the cavity of the ear) for me, thou hast given me the means of hearing and obeying thy will.-On Psalm 22:17 verse. II. כּוּר. Niph. Impf. 3 ms. עַד יִכָּרֶה שַׁהַּת Psalm 94:13 until the pit be digged for the wicked, fig. of judgment.
Meaning of "dig". No meaning of "pierced".
rakovsky wrote: Is piercing an acceptable expression for the action of digging into something? Yes.
Crossings, by Jeffrey Birch - 2014
He reached for the shovel and began unearthing whatever was in the hole. Fifteen minutes later, the shovel pierced the body. “I hit something. Jesus, it's soft.
JW:
Is there a limit to how many times you have to be told that what is primary here is the meaning of כרוּ in Hebrew and not the meaning of "pierced" in English. Regarding your example, normally at this point I would observe that English is not your first language, but we already knew that. Your efforts here are illustrative of how your Christian forefathers were convinced of the supposed Hebrew with bad Greek translations. As Yeshu Barra said, "Sounds like Deja Jew all over again."
rakovsky wrote:
The Bookseller's Sonnets, Andi Rosenthal - 2010.
Dust filled her throat as the shovel pierced the dry earth.
JW:
The context looks like the top of the ground, which was dryer than the dirt underneath and therefore harder, was broken through. This refers to a specific part of the dirt, the top, and emphasizes an event, breaking through, and not an action, digging. No such usage in The Jewish Bible and doesn't fit an animal action. An animal broke through the top part of...
rakovsky wrote:
ELEMENTS OF INORGANIC CHEMISTRY, THOMAS, GRAHAM - 1858
... namely, common salt, carbonate and sulphate of soda, — which are removed from the boiling liquor by means of a shovel pierced with holes like a colander.
In that example above, things were the other way around: Someone pierced the shovel, creating holes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyiEaSzpdMk
rakovsky wrote: Hornet Stadium - Sacramento State Athletics
http://www.hornetsports.com/sports/fball/HornetStadium
The Surge hosted the Montreal Machine in a preseason game March 14, barely three months after the first shovel pierced dirt in January.
JW:
I had never heard the expression "pierced dirt" before. I think it is an odd attempt to use the idiom "break ground".


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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by spin »

JoeWallack wrote:
rakovsky wrote: Hornet Stadium - Sacramento State Athletics
http://www.hornetsports.com/sports/fball/HornetStadium
The Surge hosted the Montreal Machine in a preseason game March 14, barely three months after the first shovel pierced dirt in January.
I had never heard the expression "pierced dirt" before. I think it is an odd attempt to use the idiom "break ground".
It's a modern metaphor, which makes good dramatic sense in its context, but employed here it shows someone who just doesn't know what he's doing other than desperately trying to justify his religious commitment to a non-biblical theory that doesn't fit the evidence. Rakovsky clearly must have "pierced" in the text at any cost when no ancient version in any language supports it. This is why he depends on the Greek "dug" (pits and wells) which he uses to hop to "gouged" from which he leaps to "pierced", like they were three passing trains going in different directions. Whatever you want to call this thought process, it's not rational or reasonable.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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JW:
I'm going to move to the Internal evidence now because the Greek evidence is of limited weight compared to the Hebrew. There is a great related article on the subject at Paul Tobin's The Rejection of Pascals Wager Psalm 22:16: A Prophecy of the Crucifixion?

Tobin demonstrates and then some, just how well the Hebrew word "like a lion" fits at the location in question:
Note also that Psalm 22:11-21 provides a coherent overall structure when Psalm 22:16b reads "like a lion". If we follow the description of the (metaphorical) animals that permeates this whole passage this is how the progression looks like: [50]

A. Bulls Psalm 22:11
  • B. Lion (including mention of mouths) Psalm 22:13
    • C. Dogs Psalm 22:16a
      • X. Lion Psalm 22:16b
      C'. Dogs Psalm 22:20
    B'. Lion (including mention of mouth) Psalm 22:21a
A'. Oxen Psalm 22:21b

Note that the progression exhibits what is normally known as a chiastic structure. This is merely a device use in poetry and some types of prose that crosses the terms and ideas in this manner A - B - C - X - C'- B'- A'. The central "lion" forms the climax to the whole section in which his ordeal or anxiety is at its greatest. After that deliverance follows quickly. Thus a chiastic structure with a central climax fits the context of Psalm 22:11-21 very closely.

These then, are the reasons why kaari, "like a lion", suits the context of Psalm 22 better than kaaru:
  • 1. It continues the imagery of animals (bulls, dogs and lions) as metaphors for his enemies.
    2. It completes the couplet in verse 16 via synonymous parallelism.
    3. It falls into the same "drift" as the rest of Psalm 22-where the Psalmist is threatened, or feels threatened, but is never described as being physically harmed or attacked.
    4. It completes the overall chiastic structure of Psalm 22:11-21.
JW:
I'll also add that the pre-fix for "like a lion", "like", fits amazingly well here since the whole point is comparing the human threat with animal type threats and that if "karu" was original it would have been a more remarkable coincidence then even the author of GMark could have come up with, a word at that point in the Psalm that for all we know looked exactly like the Hebrew word for "like a lion" due to yod/vav confusion.

Not that Roughkovsky deserves it but I will add that Tobin thinks NH has a Waw.


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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Regarding the Internal evidence Tobin also demonstrates that the literary style of poetic parallelism also favors "like a lion" as original:

Like a Lion: Still the Favored Reading
When we turn back to the MT reading, supported by the Targums and Symmachus, we find that some scholars have been too quick to dismiss the sentence as meaningless. Part of the problem comes in reading "like a lion" as the beginning a line or stich. However the phrase could easily have fallen within the previous line, forming this couplet:

For dogs have compassed me.
The assembly of the wicked have encircled me like a lion.

This (suggested) couplet takes the poetic form know as "synonymous parallelism"- in both lines we have the imagery of animals (dogs/lion) and the idea of being surrounded/encircled by them. This parallelism is lost if any of the suggestions for kaaru were to be inserted here. [l]

What to do with "my hands and my feet"? For this we have to absorb the whole imagery of Psalm 22:11-21. [The translation below is taken from the NRSV except that I have changed the punctuation at verse 16 and have replaced the NRSV's "they shriveled" back to "like a lion".]

Psalm 22: 11-21
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
  • 12 Many bulls encircle me,
    strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
    13 they open wide their mouths at me,
    like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.
  • 16 For dogs are all around me;
    a company of evildoers encircles me like a lion.
My hands and feet;
17 I can count all my bones.

They stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my clothes among themselves,
and for my clothing they cast lots.

19 But you, O LORD, do not be far away!
O my help, come quickly to my aid!
  • 20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
    my life from the power of the dog!
    21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
    From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me.
If we look at the whole passage above we find three basic themes: the Psalmist's call to God for help (Psalm 22:11 & 19), the description of the state of his anxiety (Psalm 22:14-15, 16b-17a) and the description of his enemies, metaphorically represented by three different animals -the bull/oxen, the dog and the lion. (Psalm 22:12-13, 16b-17a, 20-21). Indeed the imagery conveyed here (Psalm 22:14-15, 16b-17a) is someone surrounded by his enemies in a state of extreme despair, suffering physical discomfort and probably dehydrated and emaciated from his trials, calling out to God for deliverance.
JW:
Note that before the ending we always have a parallel of animal and action:

12 Many bulls encircle me,
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;

13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.

16 For dogs are all around me;
a company of evildoers encircles me like a lion.

The ending summarizes for each animal:

20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me.

Without "like a lion" there is no second animal reference for 22:16.


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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky »

JoeWallack wrote:JW:
Regarding the Internal evidence Tobin also demonstrates that the literary style of poetic parallelism also favors "like a lion" as original:


JW:
Note that before the ending we always have a parallel of animal and action:

12 Many bulls encircle me,
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;

13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.

.........................................


16 For dogs are all around me;
a company of evildoers encircles me like a lion. .......... my hands and my feet.

The ending summarizes for each animal:

20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me.

Without "like a lion" there is no second animal reference for 22:16.
1. You missed verses 14 and 15, which have no animal, but they do each have a body part coupled with an action. Therefore, every verse from 12 to 16 has either an animal or a body part coupled directly with an action, but never an animal coupled directly with a human body part. "...like a lion my hands and my feet" would be an animal - body part coupling that wouldn't fit the pattern.

2. The action is not merely any action, but an action of harm.

3. Therefore, for verse 16's coupling with the body parts that are explicit (hands and feet), we would fit in some harming action.

4. The verses that you showed above to establish a pattern of animals and actions did not mention a human body part, but verses 14 and 15 and the end of v. 16 do have a body part. Therefore the end of verse 16 that mentions body parts would poetically have to match up with verses 14 and 15 that mention the body parts too.

5. Since I agree with you that there should be an explicit action at the end of v. 16 to match the pattern, then what is the explicit action that is stated at the end of verse 16? The word evildoers couples with the action of surrounding, and the hands and feet pair up with what explicit action?

6. In verse 20, we do not always have couplings of "animal" and "action". That is because the "Sword" is used in a coupling, but a "sword" is not an animal.

7. Verse 20 has four harming entities: "lion's mouth", "oxen horns", "dogs", and "Sword." Each of those four can be found explicit in the verses you posted, except for the last one, the Sword. Where is the "sword" directly referred to in vv. 12-16? "Evildoers" could carry swords, but where do the enemies directly bear a clear description of having swords in the passage, unless it's by reference to the end of v. 16?

8. Each of those four dangerous entities has the danger of something piercing - a dog bites, a lion's mouth has teeth, a sword is sharp, and a bull's/oxen's horn is pointed too. They are all piercing instruments. Getting poured out like water so the victim is laid in the dust of death sounds like someone got pierced. But where does it say the narrator actually underwent the piercing that would lead to this?
"I poured out.... you laid me in the dust of death, for .... evildoers surround me, _______ my arms('yod') and my legs."

I find either Christian or the traditional rabbinical conclusion on the word variant reasonable, and both traditions have commonly understood this to refer to the evildoers attacking the narrator.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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JoeWallack wrote:JW:
Regarding the Internal evidence Tobin also demonstrates that the literary style of poetic parallelism also favors "like a lion" as original:

Like a Lion: Still the Favored Reading
When we turn back to the MT reading, supported by the Targums and Symmachus, we find that some scholars have been too quick to dismiss the sentence as meaningless. Part of the problem comes in reading "like a lion" as the beginning a line or stich. However the phrase could easily have fallen within the previous line, forming this couplet:

For dogs have compassed me.
The assembly of the wicked have encircled me like a lion.
Tobin is also making a mistake of ending the sentence at "me like a lion", wherein the text must actually include the words my arm and my legs, the role of which is what prompted the grammatical objection.

If people are objecting that a sentence I make is grammatically and conceptually confusing, I don't get to drop out five words (eg. "my hands and my feet") to make it sensible. I have to include the five words and explain why they are sensible.

Scholars like Tobin have been arguing on both sides about this one for centuries. It's not going to go away easily, because the extant texts have very divergent wordings, and because religious communities and Skeptical Debunkers have a vested interest in reading it a certain way. A large plurality of text traditions (Aquila, LXX, DSS, Vulgate, Peshitta, and some Masoretic) have a verb other than "like a lion", notwithstanding the theory that the DSS made a spelling error. Meanwhile, most Hebrew texts passed down by the Masoretes in the wake of Christian-Jewish debates on this kind of issue say "like a lion".
This (suggested) couplet takes the poetic form know as "synonymous parallelism"- in both lines we have the imagery of animals (dogs/lion) and the idea of being surrounded/encircled by them. This parallelism is lost if any of the suggestions for kaaru were to be inserted here. [l]
Despite Tobin's claim, "the imagery of animals (dogs/lion) and the idea of being surrounded/encircled by them" is not lost when the verse is translated correctly, unlike Tobin's version that leaves out "my hands and my feet", a phrase that shows why his own parallel theory is wrong.

16 For dogs are all around me; Action + animal parallel
a company of evildoers encircles me ; Action + animal parellel
_ACTION_ my hands and my feet. ; Action + body parts paralleled with verses 14 and 15 that described actions and body parts.
What to do with "my hands and my feet"? For this we have to absorb the whole imagery of Psalm 22:11-21.
  • 16 For dogs are all around me;
    a company of evildoers encircles me like a lion.
My hands and feet;

17 I can count all my bones.
"My hands and my feet" is not a sentence. Tobin's punctuation change is not in any mainstream Christian/Jewish translations (eg. KJV, NRSV, NKJV, Russian Synodal, LXX, Vulgate, Aquila, JPT, JPS, Artscroll, Targum, Rashi) AFAIK.
Tobin has been forced to make a defective translation to avoid coupling up "my hands and my feet" with the mystery word in v. 16.
Last edited by rakovsky on Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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JoeWallack wrote: Not that Roughkovsky deserves it but I will add that Tobin thinks NH has a Waw.
Hello, Joseph!
I am interested in having a respectful disucssion and don't remember ever making any personal aspersions on you.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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JoeWallack wrote: I'll also add that the pre-fix for "like a lion", "like", fits amazingly well here since the whole point is comparing the human threat with animal type threats
I think that in the context of harm from the enemies bearing sharp weapons, there is at least a general implication of harm that is "like a lion", particularly the "lion's mouth" mentioned in v. 20. The human's threat is also compared to the threat by "evildoers" and the harm from "the sword" in vv. 16 and vv. 20, so it's not the only implication. It's at least an implicit metaphor I think that is used to describe the attack, even if the text doesn't say "like a lion".

and that if "karu" was original it would have been a more remarkable coincidence then even the author of GMark could have come up with, a word at that point in the Psalm that for all we know looked exactly like the Hebrew word for "like a lion" due to yod/vav confusion.
The gospel writers used both the Hebrew and the Greek LXX - sometimes verses are used in the gospels that match the LXX over the Masoretic, and other times the opposite.

Also, the gospel writers do use Psalm 22 as a reference for jesus' death, but they don't do so explicitly verse by verse. There is no reference AFAIK in Mark 15 to Jesus being compared to a worm or some other things in Psalm 22.

Crucifixion was well known at the time to involve nailing the arms and/or legs, so by mentioning "crucifixion", Mark could have been drawing a connection to Psalm 22 without spelling that part out. The same thing goes with Zechariah 11-13, Isaiah 52-53 and other texts that they considered Messianic. They didn't do an explicit verse by verse connection even in cases where in the Hebrew and LXX someone could easily interpret a match.

Take for example the story of Jonah and the fig tree. Jesus repeatedly uses fig trees in his parables, or else the gospel writers do, in ways that could be considered analogous to the fig tree in Jonah's story, but they never make the connection explicit, even though that connection would help support the Christian narrative and theology. Would you like me to explain more what I mean about that, Joe?

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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JoeWallack wrote:
rakovsky wrote:
The Bookseller's Sonnets, Andi Rosenthal - 2010.
Dust filled her throat as the shovel pierced the dry earth.
JW:
The context looks like the top of the ground, which was dryer than the dirt underneath and therefore harder, was broken through. This refers to a specific part of the dirt, the top, and emphasizes an event, breaking through, and not an action, digging. No such usage in The Jewish Bible and doesn't fit an animal action. An animal['s teeth] broke through the top part of...
the victim's flesh.

I would love to see confirmation or even direct rebuttal of the claim that Yalkut Shimoni says "pierced" in the passages I linted to previously.

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