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Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby rakovsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:58 am

What I like about this website and forum is the big list of early Christian writings, along with commentaries on the writings, from the first few centuries. Bibles are pretty common in America, but we don't have such a good list or supply of the works of Christians in AD 50-300. One reason could be lack of organization and scholarly approach. Another could be the fact some works like Gospel of Thomas and the gnostic writings were rejected and banned, burned, or basically forgotten about. Another good thing about the forum is critical, educated views, including skepticism.

Best thing to do is to have a respectful discussion bringing out real information and be open to different ideas.
Trying to ban the major alternate text readings or variants, or treat them as dishonest or like they ideally shouldn't even be used is basically going against what makes Early Writings a great database.
Doesn't really matter IMO if the alternate text reading and variants in the manuscripts theologically can be used as Christian or as anti-Christian, as to whether the best thing is to have a respectful discussion and take notice of the variants in the manuscripts.

Normal & best professional thing for the scholars and translators to do is to pick what they think is the most likely original text variant, translate it, and then make a footnote for the public readership that an alternate translation or original wording exists. Probably most Jewish and Christian Bibles nowadays have those kinds of footnotes.


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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby rakovsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:57 am

JoeWallack wrote:
Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment

"First, let's take a look at the exact same word that the Masoretic Text has for Psalm 22:17, "like a lion", at Isaiah 38:13:

Image



I came across something very interesting about a unique connection between the Masoretic KARI in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 38:
the Masorah itself suggests that there is something different [than "like a lion"] going on in Psalm 22:16. The Masorah note attached to the word KARI indicates that it is found two times in this exact spelling (with the initial vowel chametz).

The [second] occurrence [after Psalm 22:16] is Isaiah 38:13. A Masoretic note attached to this verse (see Perowne, Psalms,p. 248) indicates that though the word is found in this exact form twice, the meanings are different (בתרישני). “Like a lion” certainly fits the sense of Isaiah 38:13, so apparently the scribes recognized a different meaning for the word in Psalm 22.
~Tim Hegg
http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArt ... s22.16.pdf


I am not sure what he means about the Chametz pronunciation, but Hegg is noticing that only KARI of Isaiah 38 and Psalm 22 have it like this: כָּֽאֲרִ֔י

KARI is also in numbers 24:9 and Ezekiel 22:25, but the diacritics are different than in KARI in Isaiah 38 and Psalm 22.
(You can double check here if you want: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/kaari_738.htm)
Isaiah 38:13 says: "I reckoned till morning, [that], as a lion, so will he break all my bones: from day [even] to night wilt thou make an end of me. "
Kind of interesting parallel to Psalm 22 actually IMO. Maybe even an illusion by Hezekiah to Psalm 22. They are both salvation prayers. Isaiah 38 has a 10 verse salvation prayer of Thanksgiving that God delivered him because he was worried he would undergo the kind of experience you notice in Psalm 22. In Psalm 22 the narrator complains that the enemies he compares to a lion's jaws (v.14) attack him (since he physically is poured out, laid in the dust of death etc.) and that his suffering is "day and night."

Perowne writes in his commentary on the Psalms:
Jacob Ben Chayyim however in the Massora finalis says that he had found KARU as the Kthibh and KARI as the Q'ru in good MSS, and this is supported by the Massora Magna on Numb 24 9. ...

Vulgate foderunt. "They bound". So Aq. in his 2d edition, ... In this case the word must have been associated with the Arab root _15 , and so "to bind"... it may be observed it is very doubtful whether the Arabic root can properly mean to bind. In the Kamus it is said that the [Arab root word] _15 in the 2d conjug. means ... with acc of the pers. is equivalent to Шаb, to pierce through." (See this fully discussed in Reinke's note

SOURCE: pp. 255-266
https://books.google.com/books?id=xzMHAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:BlkP6cOd3FkC&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL_IvVoLfRAhWGQCYKHdVuDmIQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

So KARI in the minds of the Masorah writers was in fact used in both places but in Isaiah 38 it meant "like a lion" and in Psalm 22 it meant something different than "like a lion." That could help explain why there are so many ancient & Masoretic text variants. One of the things that brings some people to this kind of issue is they love a good mystery.

the Qere is the technical orthographic device used to indicate the pronunciation of the words in the Masoretic text of the Hebrew language scriptures (Tanakh), while the Ketiv indicates their written form, as inherited from tradition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qere_and_Ketiv

So in Psalm 22, KARU was the Ketiv, the written form, but the pronunciation was KARI, according to the Masora finalis and Masora Magna.


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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:14 am

rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote:The facts regarding Ps 22:16:

4) there was no piercing, gouging, digging or whatever physical notion one wants to read into the text, as no violence is ever committed against the speaker of the psalm. He feels alienated and abandoned, surrounded by nasties of all horrid types, but nothing happens to him.

It is dishonest for the various translations to present Ps 22:16 as dealing with piercing. ...I class this issue is one way to judge the quality of the translation: if it talks of piercing it is a suspect translation.


I guess if you were going to be consistent you would claim...

Any modern translation.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:16 am

rakovsky wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:
Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment

"First, let's take a look at the exact same word that the Masoretic Text has for Psalm 22:17, "like a lion", at Isaiah 38:13:

Image



I came across something very interesting about a unique connection between the Masoretic KARI in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 38:
the Masorah itself suggests that there is something different [than "like a lion"] going on in Psalm 22:16. The Masorah note attached to the word KARI indicates that it is found two times in this exact spelling (with the initial vowel chametz).

The [second] occurrence [after Psalm 22:16] is Isaiah 38:13. A Masoretic note attached to this verse (see Perowne, Psalms,p. 248) indicates that though the word is found in this exact form twice, the meanings are different (בתרישני). “Like a lion” certainly fits the sense of Isaiah 38:13, so apparently the scribes recognized a different meaning for the word in Psalm 22.
~Tim Hegg
http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArt ... s22.16.pdf


I am not sure what he means about the Chametz pronunciation, but Hegg is noticing that only KARI of Isaiah 38 and Psalm 22 have it like this: כָּֽאֲרִ֔י

KARI is also in numbers 24:9 and Ezekiel 22:25, but the diacritics are different than in KARI in Isaiah 38 and Psalm 22.
(You can double check here if you want: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/kaari_738.htm)
Isaiah 38:13 says: "I reckoned till morning, [that], as a lion, so will he break all my bones: from day [even] to night wilt thou make an end of me. "
Kind of interesting parallel to Psalm 22 actually IMO. Maybe even an illusion by Hezekiah to Psalm 22. They are both salvation prayers. Isaiah 38 has a 10 verse salvation prayer of Thanksgiving that God delivered him because he was worried he would undergo the kind of experience you notice in Psalm 22. In Psalm 22 the narrator complains that the enemies he compares to a lion's jaws (v.14) attack him (since he physically is poured out, laid in the dust of death etc.) and that his suffering is "day and night."

Perowne writes in his commentary on the Psalms:
Jacob Ben Chayyim however in the Massora finalis says that he had found KARU as the Kthibh and KARI as the Q'ru in good MSS, and this is supported by the Massora Magna on Numb 24 9. ...

Vulgate foderunt. "They bound". So Aq. in his 2d edition, ... In this case the word must have been associated with the Arab root _15 , and so "to bind"... it may be observed it is very doubtful whether the Arabic root can properly mean to bind. In the Kamus it is said that the [Arab root word] _15 in the 2d conjug. means ... with acc of the pers. is equivalent to Шаb, to pierce through." (See this fully discussed in Reinke's note

SOURCE: pp. 255-266
https://books.google.com/books?id=xzMHAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:BlkP6cOd3FkC&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL_IvVoLfRAhWGQCYKHdVuDmIQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

So KARI in the minds of the Masorah writers was in fact used in both places but in Isaiah 38 it meant "like a lion" and in Psalm 22 it meant something different than "like a lion." That could help explain why there are so many ancient & Masoretic text variants. One of the things that brings some people to this kind of issue is they love a good mystery.

the Qere is the technical orthographic device used to indicate the pronunciation of the words in the Masoretic text of the Hebrew language scriptures (Tanakh), while the Ketiv indicates their written form, as inherited from tradition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qere_and_Ketiv

So in Psalm 22, KARU was the Ketiv, the written form, but the pronunciation was KARI, according to the Masora finalis and Masora Magna.

The short response is that there is no ketiv/qere reading for this verse.

But it is interesting what you reported from this old commentary on the Psalms, or what you didn't cite, eg "[t]he MSS., almost without exception, have the present Masoretic reading." The more acceptable spelling of the supposed verb here כרו is found only in a few late manuscripts "and is generally attributed to Christians". (Incidentally, Jacob ben Chayyim was not strangely a later convert to christianity.)

There follows a section on how the word in question could have been a verb based on the ancient attempts by translators to deal with the Hebrew. There is nothing of help in this because what we don't have is the text that they were working from. Then we have conjecture as to the orthography, ie why there is an ALEF in the text when it shouldn't be there. The writer concludes whatever the case (the unfounded "there can be very little doubt")... we should go with "pierced" or maybe something about "binding". The last section briefly lists old version using "like a lion". Thus ends the commentary on כארי.

This is still relevant:
spin wrote:The facts regarding Ps 22:16:

1) the Massoretic text is problematic but consistent: it says nothing about biting, piercing, gouging or digging. It does say "like a lion", כארי (KAF-ALEP-RESH-YOD).

2) an early copy of the verse was found at Nahal Hever (circa Bar Kochba revolt). The Dead Sea Scrolls are known to show confusion between the letters WAW and YOD. This is so with the fragment in question. The Nahal Haver copy features a long last letter which has been taken to justify the Greek reading "they dug my hands and feet." However, all we see is evidence that there was confusion between WAW and YOD. The Hebrew word כארו is not how "dug" is spelled. What we see is the Greek translator of the Hebrew text read to him making sense of the reader who was confused between the WAW and the YOD. This is the simplest explanation of all the evidence from the Massoretic text, the Greek text and the Nahal Hever fragment.

3) the connection between Ps 22:16 and the piercing notion is not found in the new testament, even though references to other notions in the psalm are to be found.

4) there was no piercing, gouging, digging or whatever physical notion one wants to read into the text, as no violence is ever committed against the speaker of the psalm. He feels alienated and abandoned, surrounded by nasties of all horrid types, but nothing happens to him.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby JoeWallack » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:26 am

JW:
Fragment 9:

Image

JW:
Since the much clearer fragment (8), presumably by the same author, generally shows Waws as a little longer than Yods, and Yods with a little larger head than Waws, and for the letter in question, it does look like it is a little longer and does not have a little larger head, it's more likely to be a Waw than a Yod. There is some uncertainty though because of:

    1) Significant fading

    2) Bending

    3) Provenance (passing through the discredited Peter Flint)



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Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Determining Who's Original And Who's Lion? Nahal Hever Fragment
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby rakovsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:09 am

spin wrote:
rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote:The facts regarding Ps 22:16:

4) there was no piercing, gouging, digging or whatever physical notion one wants to read into the text, as no violence is ever committed against the speaker of the psalm. He feels alienated and abandoned, surrounded by nasties of all horrid types, but nothing happens to him.

It is dishonest for the various translations to present Ps 22:16 as dealing with piercing. ...I class this issue is one way to judge the quality of the translation: if it talks of piercing it is a suspect translation.


I guess if you were going to be consistent you would claim...

Any modern translation.

Art scroll and JPT are two modern ones


Judaica Press Tanakh:
"17. Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet."
(http://www.taggedtanakh.org/Chapter/Index/english-Ps-22


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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby iskander » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:21 am

rakovsky wrote:Art scroll and JPT are two modern ones


Judaica Press Tanakh:
"17. Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet."
(http://www.taggedtanakh.org/Chapter/Index/english-Ps-22



You are a tolerant and patient man. :cheers:
16 for dogs are around me;
a company of evildoers
encircles me;
my hands and feet have shrivelled. b
b meaning of Heb uncertain


Psalm 22:20: Deliver my soul from the sword,
my life from the power of the dog!
The Oxford Annotated Bible 3rd edition 1989
OUP
ISBN 9780195288803
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:23 pm

spin wrote:The facts regarding Ps 22:16:

4) there was no piercing, gouging, digging or whatever physical notion one wants to read into the text, as no violence is ever committed against the speaker of the psalm. He feels alienated and abandoned, surrounded by nasties of all horrid types, but nothing happens to him.

It is dishonest for the various translations to present Ps 22:16 as dealing with piercing. ...I class this issue is one way to judge the quality of the translation: if it talks of piercing it is a suspect translation.


rakovsky wrote:I guess if you were going to be consistent you would claim...

spin wrote:Any modern translation.

rakovsky wrote:Art scroll and JPT are two modern ones

Judaica Press Tanakh:
"17. Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet."
(http://www.taggedtanakh.org/Chapter/Index/english-Ps-22

It's interesting that your argumentless process has come to such a dismal point, whinging about a Jewish translation that shows what they find in the text—which you totally for tendentious reasons reject—ie the comparison with lions, and that adds in brackets in a manner to show what is not in the text how the translator tries to make sense of the verse. What is text is clearly distinguished from what is not. Why are you attempting to trade in grubby gotchas? :tomato:
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby rakovsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:31 pm

iskander wrote:
rakovsky wrote:You are a tolerant and patient man. :cheers:

Thanks.
Big benefit is having truth on your side and being educated on an issue. I think it's not perfect though, because sometimes people being not respectful can have a psychological impact.
Still, there are even a couple good benefits. Not having someone to dialogue with means a topic could get sidelined or ignored. You also don't notice any weaknesses in your own position if you don't have a critic to point them out.
Optimism says God and good things ultimately win in the end.
iskander wrote:
16 for dogs are around me;
a company of evildoers
encircles me;
my hands and feet have shrivelled. b
b meaning of Heb uncertain


Psalm 22:20: Deliver my soul from the sword,
my life from the power of the dog!
The Oxford Annotated Bible 3rd edition 1989
OUP
ISBN 9780195288803

Looks like "Spin" would consider that "dishonest" and "suspect" because it doesn't say "like a lion", the only translation he considers "honest", apparently.

My ideal is when scholars tell the reader about the text variants. I like how they at least mentioned "meaning of Heb uncertain".
Going out of your way to say people shouldn't be even using or bringing up that variant readings exist is not scholarly.

My personal opinion is that it's not clear to me which exact word is intended, but both meanings are. Kari/Karu/Kru here is meant as an action verb based on grammar and the noun-verb poetic structure of that big section of the chapter, but it's also a reference (subtle or explicit) to the concept of an attacking lion, based on v. 14.


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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby rakovsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:40 pm

spin wrote:It's interesting that your argumentless process has come to such a dismal point, whinging about a Jewish translation that shows what they find in the text—which you totally for tendentious reasons reject—ie the comparison with lions

It means that whichever of the two common translations one accepts, or whether you go by the most common Christian and Jewish views, the enemies are still harming the narrator's hands, which is something you are rejecting as dishonest/suspect/should not be understood.

When the two most common understandings of the text agree that the hands are harmed with a sharpened attack (whether karu or kari is wrong), it is not a dismal point.

If you actually care about the Jewish understanding, I invite you to see if you can dig up Maimonides'.


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