Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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spin
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:53 pm

rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote: It's interesting that your argumentless process has come to such a dismal point, whinging about a Jewish translation that shows what they find in the text—which you totally for tendentious reasons reject—ie the comparison with lions
It means that whichever of the two common translations one accepts, or whether you go by the most common Christian and Jewish views, the enemies are still harming the narrator's hands, which is something you are rejecting as dishonest/suspect/should not be understood.

When the two most common understandings of the text agree that the hands are harmed (whether karu or kari is wrong), it is not a dismal point.

If you actually care about the Jewish understanding, I invite you to see if you can dig up Maimonides'.
As I have already pointed out, no physical violence to the narrator is clearly related in the psalm. There is a lot of feeling isolated, alienated and under threat, but no actual violence is recorded. Attempting to insert violence into this verse has no support from the rest of the psalm.

As to common understandings, a translation needs to distinguish what a writer finds in the text from eisegetical attempts to render the text.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:25 pm

I like how you are able to change POVs on a specific point when the evidence turns to go differently on a specific point. This is a forte.

Before I started answering posts on the thread, I thought there was no hint about a comparison to a lion. Now after looking at the passage (like v. 14), I think that the writer had this implication in mind, even if he used the word karu and directly meant "they gouge/dig". I think that being open to different POVs is an advantage.

JoeWallack wrote:JW:

JW:
Since the much clearer fragment (8), presumably by the same author, generally shows Waws as a little longer than Yods, and Yods with a little larger head than Waws, and for the letter in question, it does look like it is a little longer and does not have a little larger head, it's more likely to be a Waw than a Yod. There is some uncertainty though because of:

3) Provenance (passing through the discredited Peter Flint)[/list]
I can understand how a forger could redraw an old document letter to make it longer, but it's very difficult to do the opposite and remove a drawn head. I also highly doubt that Flint would have picked up on the fine point you and I have been getting into here about whether hooks were drawn on waws at that point in time.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:32 pm

spin wrote:
rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote: If you actually care about the Jewish understanding, I invite you to see if you can dig up Maimonides'.
As I have already pointed out, no physical violence to the narrator is clearly related in the psalm.
If that was "clear", why does the narrator say he was "poured out like water" in conjunction with his enemies armed with sharp weapons surrounding him, and why is it the most common Jewish understanding of the Psalm's meaning that the narrated was harmed?

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by iskander » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:43 pm

rakovsky wrote:...
My personal opinion is that it's not clear to me which exact word is intended, but both meanings are. Kari/Karu/Kru here is meant as an action verb based on grammar and the noun-verb poetic structure of that big section of the chapter, but it's also a reference (subtle or explicit) to the concept of an attacking lion, based on v. 14.
Commentary to psalm 22
Jewish tradition interprets this psalm as a lament from David over the future exile ( Rashi), more specifically the threat against the Jews by Hamman in the book of Esther( various rabbis). For that reason there is a costume to read it on Purim
The Jewish Study Bible


I like the interpretation of Kenneth Greifer and I very much dislike the Esther interpretation.
If this psalm is about the future , then the Christian version is as good as the rabbinic one or better.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:53 pm

spin wrote:As I have already pointed out, no physical violence to the narrator is clearly related in the psalm.
rakovsky wrote:If that was "clear", why does the narrator say he was "poured out like water" in conjunction with his enemies armed with sharp weapons surrounding him, and why is it the most common Jewish understanding of the Psalm's meaning that the narrated was harmed?
I assume that, beside not being clear on v.14a, you cannot see any actual violence committed against the narrator.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by iskander » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:54 pm

Commentary on psalm 22
15-19
A graphical description of a mortal illness . The psalmist feels his body stop working and disintegrate. He sees himself die, his body so dried up that it turns to dust. The scorners are like dogs hunting prey. They gloat at his death and are eager to take his possessions
The Jewish Study Bible

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by Ulan » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:37 pm

If we really want to talk about how likely an interpretation is (leaving the question of what the textual evidence really shows aside for a moment), I must admit that an interpretation that speaks of pierced hands and feet conveys a rather weird image to me. What are the dogs supposed to be doing there exactly? Punching tickets? Why hands and feet?

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:01 pm

Ulan wrote: I must admit that an interpretation that speaks of pierced hands and feet conveys a rather weird image to me.

What are the dogs supposed to be doing there exactly? Punching tickets? Why hands and feet?
Image
Dog bite
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/287174913715080345/
Image
where the tissue is deeply punctured, torn, or joints/bones have been crushed... Always seek medical attention for these wounds
Source: How to treat a dog bite, http://www.wikihow.com/Treat-a-Dog-Bite
In dog bite cases, the arms/hands are commonly pierced.

Same thing with the legs/feet.

Image

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:05 pm

iskander wrote:Commentary on psalm 22
15-19
A graphical description of a mortal illness . The psalmist feels his body stop working and disintegrate. He sees himself die, his body so dried up that it turns to dust. The scorners are like dogs hunting prey. They gloat at his death and are eager to take his possessions
The Jewish Study Bible
Thanks for checking it out.

I'd be interested to see Maimonides' take or the Talmud's.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:49 pm

rakovsky wrote:I like how you are able to change POVs on a specific point when the evidence turns to go differently on a specific point. This is a forte.

Before I started answering posts on the thread, I thought there was no hint about a comparison to a lion. Now after looking at the passage (like v. 14), I think that the writer had this implication in mind, even if he used the word karu and directly meant "they gouge/dig". I think that being open to different POVs is an advantage.

JoeWallack wrote:3) Provenance (passing through the discredited Peter Flint)[/list]
I can understand how a forger could redraw an old document letter to make it longer, but it's very difficult to do the opposite and remove a drawn head. I also highly doubt that Flint would have picked up on the fine point you and I have been getting into here about whether hooks were drawn on waws at that point in time.
Umm, that's the sort of thing Flint would have had to do as a baby academic. If you're interested at all in the subject, Ada Yardeni did a great book on the alphabet (The Book of Hebrew Script) specifically to teach people how each letter was written (also deals with palaeography). Frank Moore Cross went through almost every letter available to be seen to catalog the differing shapes of the finest details of them all. Flint who is at the top of the game will naturally be aware of it all.

--

And why, Joe, is Flint "discredited"? I missed it. So he's a conservative scholar and thinks waws are generally longer in the Nahal Hever psalms fragments. (He's probably right, though "generally" or whatever tendency word one uses is no guarantee for all exemplars. But "discredited"?)
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