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Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby Nathan » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:51 pm

spin wrote:Flint who is at the top of the game will naturally be aware of it all.

Sadly, Peter Flint passed away this past November.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:54 pm

Nathan wrote:
spin wrote:Flint who is at the top of the game will naturally be aware of it all.

Sadly, Peter Flint passed away this past November.

65 is not so old these days. Thanks for the corrector. He was part of the DSS landscape.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby TedM » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:02 pm

If you're interested at all in the subject, Ada Yardeni did a great book on the alphabet (The Book of Hebrew Script) specifically to teach people how each letter was written (also deals with palaeography)


The same Ada Yardeni that testified in Israeli court that the 'James Ossuary' inscription is entirely ancient and that if the item was found to be a forgery, she would leave her profession?
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby kennethgreifer » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:08 pm

Spin,

This is why Flint is supposedly discredited. I googled "Peter Flint psalm 22" and this article showed up. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Psalms_22:16

Prohibited Arguments

1) Prohibited Argument = Peter Flint's reading of NH 22:17 should be given the evidential weight of a conclusion by a Public authority.
Reason for Prohibition = Peter Flint previously publicly claimed a certain reading for the same word at XHev/Se4 Fragment 11 even though it's generally agreed that almost all of the word is invisible. Flint's professional credibility is therefore impeached regarding this type of conclusion.
Flint's credentials and related reasons for conclusions may be presented but since his credibility has been impeached speculation regarding the motivation for his lack of objectivity will be permitted.
--JoeWallack 08:21, 14 Nov 2006 (CST)
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby kennethgreifer » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:13 pm

spin,

Maybe you could look at my ideas about Psalm 22.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2828

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:30 pm

TedM wrote:
If you're interested at all in the subject, Ada Yardeni did a great book on the alphabet (The Book of Hebrew Script) specifically to teach people how each letter was written (also deals with palaeography)


The same Ada Yardeni that testified in Israeli court that the 'James Ossuary' inscription is entirely ancient and that if the item was found to be a forgery, she would leave her profession?

Various scholars held similar views. The view is irrelevant to the significance of the text.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:33 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:Spin,

This is why Flint is supposedly discredited. I googled "Peter Flint psalm 22" and this article showed up. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Psalms_22:16

Prohibited Arguments

1) Prohibited Argument = Peter Flint's reading of NH 22:17 should be given the evidential weight of a conclusion by a Public authority.
Reason for Prohibition = Peter Flint previously publicly claimed a certain reading for the same word at XHev/Se4 Fragment 11 even though it's generally agreed that almost all of the word is invisible. Flint's professional credibility is therefore impeached regarding this type of conclusion.
Flint's credentials and related reasons for conclusions may be presented but since his credibility has been impeached speculation regarding the motivation for his lack of objectivity will be permitted.
--JoeWallack 08:21, 14 Nov 2006 (CST)


Thanks. One would need a lot more to understand exactly what the issues are. Flint had access to vellum, which most scholars didn't have.
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby spin » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:37 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:spin,

Maybe you could look at my ideas about Psalm 22.

http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2828

Kenneth Greifer

I'm pretty happy with my understanding that nothing violent against the narrator actually happened. This psalm naturally segues into Ps 23. That nothing is allowed to happen to the narrator of Ps 22 is significant in understanding the relationship between the two psalms. We don't get "ooh, look the narrator's getting ripped apart... the Lord is my shepherd."
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby iskander » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:10 am

rakovsky wrote:
iskander wrote:Commentary on psalm 22
15-19
A graphical description of a mortal illness . The psalmist feels his body stop working and disintegrate. He sees himself die, his body so dried up that it turns to dust. The scorners are like dogs hunting prey. They gloat at his death and are eager to take his possessions

The Jewish Study Bible

Thanks for checking it out.

I'd be interested to see Maimonides' take or the Talmud's.


Psalm 22 applied to Esther

Talmud - Mas. Megilah 15b
...And stood in the inner court of the king's house.13 R. Levi said: When she reached the chamber of the idols, the Divine Presence left her. She said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.14 Dost thou perchance punish the inadvertent offence15 like the presumptuous one, or one done under compulsion like one done willingly? Or is it because I called him ‘dog’, as it says. Deliver my soul from the sword, mine only one from the power of the dog?16 She straightway retracted and called him lion, as it says. Save me from the lion's mouth.17
And it was so when the king saw Esther the queen.18 R. Johanan...



Psalms (and everything else) is applied to any suitable situation without any restriction whatsoever; the psalm intended meaning is the meaning given to it for that occasion.
When the story of Esther was written Psalm 22 was applied to her. When the Gospel was written Palm 22 was applied to him. It is a legitimate application in both cases.


So, who is lion?
Answer, lion is Esther, lion is Jesus,
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Postby kennethgreifer » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:45 am

spin wrote:
kennethgreifer wrote:spin,

Maybe you could look at my ideas about Psalm 22.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2828

Kenneth Greifer

I'm pretty happy with my understanding that nothing violent against the narrator actually happened. This psalm naturally segues into Ps 23. That nothing is allowed to happen to the narrator of Ps 22 is significant in understanding the relationship between the two psalms. We don't get "ooh, look the narrator's getting ripped apart... the Lord is my shepherd."


spin,

I don't think anything violent happened to the writer of Psalm 22. I think he compares himself to a lion that is surrounded by dogs.

"Because dogs have surrounded me, a company of evildoers has surrounded me like a lion, my hands and my feet I will count, all of my bones they will see." Instead of saying he will count his bones like the usual translations, I think he says he will count his hands and feet.

I think he is poetically saying that he is no longer like a worm as he said earlier. Since a worm does not have hands, feet, or bones, poetically he could be comparing himself to a lion and saying he is not a worm anymore because he now has hands, feet, and bones. There are many more details at the other posting that I linked to or you could look at my full explanation at my site http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/
where I have a chapter on Psalm 22 in volume 4 of my free self-published PDF books. I guess I should explain that I am what most people would call a "crackpot", but I prefer to call myself a "Hebrew Bible crackpot." Enjoy.

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