Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

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Ulan
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by Ulan » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:08 am

spin wrote:Think of a modern example: "he's simple in the head". A literal translation, word-for-word, into German "Er ist einfach im Kopf" means nothing. You can only give a non-literal translation, a functional equivalent in the target language that does basically the same thing.
Not the best example. You could use the literal translation "Er ist simpel im Kopf". Yes, German has the same word, with "less than intelligent" being one of the possible meanings.
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/simpel (3rd meaning)

This doesn't change anything about the gist of your answer though, even if the example doesn't fit.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:18 am

Ulan wrote:
spin wrote:Think of a modern example: "he's simple in the head". A literal translation, word-for-word, into German "Er ist einfach im Kopf" means nothing. You can only give a non-literal translation, a functional equivalent in the target language that does basically the same thing.
Not the best example. You could use the literal translation "Er ist simpel im Kopf". Yes, German has the same word, with "less than intelligent" being one of the possible meanings.
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/simpel (3rd meaning)

This doesn't change anything about the gist of your answer though, even if the example doesn't fit.
Yes, it goes to the gist of the answer because it shows that literal translations can often be understood in the target language.
When they aren't understood, I still prefer the literal translation, accompanied with a footnote explaining the expression, instead of a paraphrase. This is my personal preference when I want to do a close analysis.

If I am just reading for fun and don't care about the exact meaning, I like paraphrases.
I liked to read the story of David's life in the Good News Bible for ease of reading over the KJV. The reading goes a lot quicker to get the narrative and tell the story. Reading technical translation can bog you down a bit.

Even there though, if I had to pick ONLY one Bible translation and exclude the others, I would still prefer the literal one over a paraphrased one.

If we do pick "KRU", and the enemies armed with swords, "teeth" and "horns" KRU the narrator, then the literal meaning is they "dig" and "gouge" him, and a paraphrase translation is they pierce him.

Same thing with the same verb Karah in Job 40. They "make a banquet of him" is a paraphrase translation, "dig" and "gouge" is the literal one. I prefer the latter.

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Ulan
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by Ulan » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:29 am

rakovsky wrote:Yes, it goes to the gist of the answer because it shows that literal translations can often be understood in the target language.
No it doesn't. It was just a bad example because spin probably forgot that German has the word "simpel". And even though German has the word "simpel", it's not automatically sure that it also has the same spread of meanings as the English equivalent. Unfortunately for the example, it has.

As a German who had been living in the US for a long time, I can tell you that German and English have many words where literal translations will give rather unintended results because the word meanings don't overlap. One example from my school time:

A German at a hotel comes down to the front desk with a complaint: "There's a train in my room. If I don't become another ceiling, I will undress."

There's one "false friend" in the line-up (become), but the rest illustrates the dangers of literal translations.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:42 am

Ulan wrote:A German at a hotel comes down to the front desk with a complaint: "There's a train in my room. If I don't become another ceiling, I will undress."

There's one "false friend" in the line-up (become), but the rest illustrates the dangers of literal translations.
Too bad we aren't using Russian. My guess just from hearing your example is that some or each of those words you listed has a known second meaning in the original language. The context would demand using that second meaning, if such exists.

Example: Kindergarten could literally mean a "Garden of Children", but it also has a known second meaning of pre-school.
When I say I prefer the literal meaning, I am saying I prefer using the known meanings, not literal to excess or paraphrasing things, especially not into non-dictionary meanings. (Even if pierce is actually one dictionary meaning of dig).

If a German text says "Kindergarten", I don't want it overliterally translated into Garden of Children, nor do I prefer it paraphrased into "pre-school", since Kindergarten is itself a known meaning in English. Did I explain that well enough?

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:57 am

Textual symmetry demands a gouging attack in vv. 16-17.

On the Ancient Hebrew forum, Dan Black brought up a good issue:
the ancient hebrew language(ahl) authors delighted in, and populated the ahl, with literary symmetry and parallelism.

3. so, psalm 22:20-21 lists four images, in the following order:

a. sword;

b. dogs;

c. lion;

d. ox/bull.

4. and, psalm 22:12, 13, 16 lists the same four literary images in the reverse order:

a. ox/bull;

b. lion;

c. dogs;

d. sword.

Read more: http://ancient-hebrew.proboards.com/thr ... z4YUikziR1
D.Black is right. Here is what the JPT says:

13. Great bulls have surrounded me; the mighty ones of Bashan encompassed me.
14 They opened their mouth against me [like] a tearing, roaring lion.
15. I was spilled like water, ...
16. ... and You set me down in the dust of death.
17. For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. [or “they gouged my hands and feet”in the Septuagint]

21. Save my soul from the sword, my only one from the grip of the dog.
22. Save me from the lion's mouth, as from the horns of the wild oxen You answered me.

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rakovsky
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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:53 am

Yalkut Shimoni includes interpretation(s) of a gouging attack in Psalm 22:16-17


D. Black cited to me Yalkut Shimoni:
Yalkut shimoni on Nach, section 687.2
this excerpt contains quotations from, and interspersed commentary about, psalm 22:16 (17):


כי סבבוני כלבים אלו בניו של המן

for - surrounded they me - dogs - who - sons of him - belonging to - haman

* * * *

עדת מרעים הקיפוני אלו אוכלוסי אחשורוש

assembly of - ones doing evil - circled(bored) they me - who - soldiers(population) of - ahasuerus

* * * *

כארי ידי ורגלי

as lion - hands of me - and feet of me

* * * *

רבי יהודה אומר עשו לי כשפים חוברי כארי ידי ורגלי לפני אחשורוש

rabbi(teacher of me) - yehuda(yahu is praised) - saying - made(did) they - to me - sorceries(spells, charms) - ones joining (tying magic knots) - as lion - hands of me - and feet of me - to face of(before) - ahasuerus

* * * *

רבי נחמיה אומר הוכרו ידי ורגלי לפני אחשורוש

rabbi - nehemyah(comforts ya) - saying - recognized they - hands of me - and feet of me - to face of(before) - ahasuerus.

Read more: http://ancient-hebrew.proboards.com/thr ... z4YUlGmov9
D. Black comments about the first word used in the above rabbinical commentary:
הקיפוני
" "bored" means "dug" or "pierced" but a very secondary/infrequent/lesser meaning/usage."

D. Black says about the second word:
הוכרו
"a possibility, and that is the hebrew expression הוכרו was interpreted [by Dr. A. Shor] as a conjugation of the root verb כרי or כרה meaning "dig." "

Aavichai comments: "The הוכרו is root נכר huphal"


D. Black followed up:
כרה represents the root meaning "dig;" or more precisely: "he dug;"

and

הוכרו represents the hophal stem conjugation; or third person; plural number; masculine gender; past tense; passive voice; causative mood; or .... in english: "were caused dug they." note: this particular stem does not witness in the hebrew text of the bible.

* * *

another example:

נכר represents the root meaning "recognize;" or more precisely: "he recognized;"

and

הוכרו represents the hophal stem conjugation; or third person; plural number; masculine gender; past tense; passive voice; causative mood; or .... in english; "were caused recognize they." note: this particular stem also does not witness in the hebrew text of the bible.

Read more: http://ancient-hebrew.proboards.com/thr ... z4YVEbLGH2
Last edited by rakovsky on Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:59 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Post by rakovsky » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:02 am

KARU turns out to be a known form of Mishnaic Hebrew & Aramaic KRI (dig):

D. Black writes:
in the halakhot gedolot, a medieval hebrew commentary on the talmud, and published approximately the same time as the oldest surviving hebrew bible manuscripts, the hebrew/aramaic verb כרי , meaning "dig" or "pierce," spells as כארי .

[It's in the halakhot gedolot on] page 395, third line above the footnote.

books.google.com/books?id=gotBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA395&lpg=PA395&dq=%D7%9B%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99+%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%92%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%90&source=bl&ots=5lfM2dd06e&sig=Iebi37LsMBqJTNFgXU4S3iQUvoE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN0d3CjovSAhWEJiYKHeUTBxoQ6AEIHjAB#v=onepage&q=%D7%9B%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99%20%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%92%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%90&f=false

Read more: http://ancient-hebrew.proboards.com/thr ... z4YUzOIyIi
See also Strong's Dictionary:
Original Word: כָּרָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: karah
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-raw')
Short Definition: dig

Mishna כרי
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3738.htm

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