An Introduction to David Trobisch

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by MrMacSon » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:23 pm

Trobisch's reference to "copying it out of a textbook" is interesting - references to Pilate, Herodias, etc., are found in Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews 18, as are references to John the Baptist, Herod's marriage to his brother's wife, etc..

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Secret Alias
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:58 pm

Yup. But few scholars of his ilk will admit the obvious (and thus date Luke to the second century).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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MrMacSon
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by MrMacSon » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:16 pm

Secret Alias wrote:Yup. But few scholars of his ilk will admit the obvious (and thus date Luke to the second century).
True, and, as Trobisch alludes to, there has been a lot of recent scholarship around Marcionism (and the relationship of those texts to the synoptic gospels)
Another interesting phenomenon is the mentions of messiah claimants in Josephus's Antiquities & Jewish Wars, and often in Antiquities 17- 20 -
  • http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/me ... l#overview

    especially the list of 'Ancient claimants' -
    • 1. Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
      2. Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
      3. Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
      4. Judas, the Galilean (6 CE)
      5. John the Baptist (c.28 CE)
      6. Jesus of Nazareth (c.30 CE)
      7. The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
      8. King Herod Agrippa (44 CE)
      9. Theudas (45 CE)
      10. The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE)
      11. An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
      12. Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE)
      13. John of Gischala (67-70 CE)
      14. Vespasian (67 CE)
      15. Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)
      16. Jonathan, the weaver (73 CE)
      17. Lukuas (115 CE)
      18. Simon ben Kosiba (132-135)
      19. Moses of Crete (448)
    A few are also mentioned in Acts [of the Apostles]
Lena Einhorn, in her paper "Jesus & the Egyptian Prophet”, presented at the 2012 Society of Biblical Literature Annual Meeting, Chicago, presented some interesting views on similarities b/w Theudas (45 CE) (Jewish Antiquities 20.97-98 and Acts of the Apostles 5.36) and John the Baptist; and views on how some biblical accounts of Jesus on the Mount of Olives - John 18:3 and 18:12 - differ from the synoptic gospel accounts and are reminiscent of an event described by Josephus in the 50s (A.J. 20.169-172; B.J. 2.261-263), involving the so called ‘Egyptian Prophet’ (or simply ‘the Egyptian’). 'The Egyptian' is also mentioned in Acts [of the Apostles] 21.38 (with reference to Paul).

Einhorn noted & described
  • "A number of parallels between the New Testament and the works of Josephus ...
    .. where the events appear to occur with a consistent delay of fifteen to twenty years
    in the works of Josephus (Fig. 4) ...

    "In some cases (the death of Theudas, but also the presence of 'robbers') the individuals undoubtedly are historical,
    and the activity evidently placed in the wrong period in the New Testament.
    Even so, the question remains if this is due to an error on the part of the gospel writers,
    or if the time shift is deliberate.

    "The fact that Josephus describes two messianic claimants in the 40s and 50s,
    Theudas and the Egyptian, with significant similarities to John the Baptist and Jesus, and that
    he does so using distinctly negative terms, could be an argument for the time shift being
    deliberate."
She noted, also in the conclusion, -
  • "In addition, although his works have now been lost, there was at least one
    other contemporary Jewish historian, Justus of Tiberias, who wrote about the events
    preceding the Jewish war. If Luke, as is often suggested, had read Antiquitates Judaicae, he
    would have known how Josephus depicted the period
    . If he did not know of Josephus, or
    Justus, then certainly at some later point, these competing historical accounts would have
    become known. This, one could hypothesize, could be a reason for Luke, or a later editor, to
    try to minimize the chances for competing narratives. Shifting the story of Jesus to a different
    time would have been one way to accomplish this."

Bernard Muller
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:39 pm

Yup. But few scholars of his ilk will admit the obvious (and thus date Luke to the second century).
If "Luke" knew only about Josephus' Wars (as I think she did), a 1st century dating is very much possible (and therefore before gMarcion).
http://historical-jesus.info/58.html "Luke" knew about Josephus' Wars but not his Antiquities.
http://historical-jesus.info/53.html gMarcion was written after gLuke.
http://historical-jesus.info/62.html Dating of gLuke

Other relevant blog posts:
http://historical-jesus.info/75.html & http://historical-jesus.info/76.html

I am amazed how someone like Trobisch can still be a Christian and make a sermon while being very skeptical about the gospels.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:29 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:I am amazed how someone like Trobisch can still be a Christian and make a sermon while being very skeptical about the gospels.
He is a liberal Christian. Liberal Christians can be like that.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

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DCHindley
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by DCHindley » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:45 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:I am amazed how someone like Trobisch can still be a Christian and make a sermon while being very skeptical about the gospels.
He is a liberal Christian. Liberal Christians can be like that.
IMHO, I think he might be better classified as a moderate Christian.

DCH

Giuseppe
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:01 am

About Luke depending on Josephus, can I know what do you guys think about this my view?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1802

If accepted, that view would explain why Pilate is good in the our Gospels, why the crucifixion happened at Jerusalem and in no other place.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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toejam
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by toejam » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:44 pm

toejam wrote:
Solstice wrote:
Good video. But does anyone know if Trobisch leans toward HJ or MJ?
I just sent him an email to ask him this question. Will post the response if I get one.
Haven't heard back from him. Ah well. Guess he's a busy guy. In the meantime, I just picked up Trobisch's "Paul's Letter Collection: Tracing the Origins" (1994) for $10 and am halfway through as I type (only 100 pages, so should get it finished later tonight). But I wanted to add that this is essential reading for the study of the Pauline corpus. First half deals with manuscripts and how copiers treated the Pauline text in the early centuries. The second half, which I'm about to get started on, will go into his thesis that Paul himself collected, edited and published some of his letters, and with this publication gave birth to the concept of a Christian canon. Interesting...
My study list: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bignell/judeo-christian-origins-bibliography/851830651507208

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toejam
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by toejam » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:02 am

toejam wrote:
Solstice wrote:Good video. But does anyone know if Trobisch leans toward HJ or MJ?
I just sent him an email to ask him this question. Will post the response if I get one.
Well, a few months late, but I finally received an answer. Here is Trobisch's response:

"[toejam], sorry for the delay. Your email got buried. In short, I think historians should work from the sources toward the events. This means, we first should try to understand the surviving gospels, including the canonical ones, as literary expressions of the second century before we reconstruct first century events. So this puts me in the middle of your scenario. I take the gospels serious as literature, which reflects historical events. But just how to distinguish what exactly happened and what not, is not what I am interested in. I like to listen to the voice that is speaking to me in the published narratives.
David"


I gotta say, I'm a little disappointed with his response. He totally dodged the question. I was quite explicit in that I wasn't questioning what he thought could be argued strongly about the historical/mythical Jesus, but what his general suspicion was. Ah well. I guess by his saying that they "reflect historical events" means he leans towards a historical Jesus. But it's teasingly question begging as to what he means by that.
My study list: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bignell/judeo-christian-origins-bibliography/851830651507208

Ulan
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Re: An Introduction to David Trobisch

Post by Ulan » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:11 am

Given his current employer, I guess this type of answer looks prudent. Or it's just the insight that the answer is beyond our reach.

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