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Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby Bernard Muller » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:Cup cannot be poured out, but blood can.


By this logic, one cannot drink a cup, either. But then we have passages such as Isaiah 51.17 LXX:

Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, who have drunk the cup [πιοῦσα τὸ ποτήριον] of his fury at the hand of the Lord: for you have drunk out and drained the cup of calamity, the cup of wrath.

If you can drink it, you can pour it.

This is all just metonymy, a rather common figure of speech in most if not all languages: "cup" for "contents of cup" in this case.


"Luke" used the word ἐκχέω for liquids being poured out.
Lk 5:37 "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled [ἐκχέω], and the bottles shall perish."
Lk 11:50 "That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed [ἐκχέω] from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;"
Act 22:20 "And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed [ἐκχέω], I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him"

So it is rather strange she would have the cup being poured out rather than the blood of Jesus in Lk 22:20.
I also think "drinking (from) the cup" is not the same as "the cup being poured out".

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:50 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
- "cup" and "poured out" are in nominative
- "blood" in dative

It seems that in Luke the cup is poured out and not the blood.

This could be an argument that Luke mixed his sources (Paul and Mark) and created an error.

But would that be coming from "Luke"? Looks like more likely to come from a clumsy interpolator.

Very good point. I agree.
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Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:52 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:Cup cannot be poured out, but blood can.
By this logic, one cannot drink a cup, either. But then we have passages such as Isaiah 51.17 LXX:

Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, who have drunk the cup [πιοῦσα τὸ ποτήριον] of his fury at the hand of the Lord: for you have drunk out and drained the cup of calamity, the cup of wrath.
If you can drink it, you can pour it.

This is all just metonymy, a rather common figure of speech in most if not all languages: "cup" for "contents of cup" in this case.

Agreed. The problem here is that the content is the wine and not the blood. The metonymy (and also the metaphor) does not function in Luke.

Cup and wine are for taking and drinking. The blood is for pouring out.
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Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby iskander » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:41 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:
- "cup" and "poured out" are in nominative
- "blood" in dative

It seems that in Luke the cup is poured out and not the blood.

This could be an argument that Luke mixed his sources (Paul and Mark) and created an error.

But would that be coming from "Luke"? Looks like more likely to come from a clumsy interpolator.

Very good point. I agree.


Is this translation wrong? see attached file
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Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby Bernard Muller » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:35 am

It looks to me the right translation, according to the observation of Kunigunde Kreuzerin, should be:
Lk 22:20 RSV "And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

This verse has a lot of variants (from http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php):

Luke 22:20 (Manuscript Comparator) (Audio: WH 1 WH 2 Byz)

καὶ τὸ ποτήριον ὡσαύτως μετὰ τὸ δειπνῆσαι, λέγων· Τοῦτο τὸ ποτήριον ἡ καινὴ διαθήκη ἐν τῷ αἵματί μου, τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐκχυννόμενον].
Variant readings

22:20 (Münster)
verses 17, 18, 19, 20] p75 ‭א A B C E G H K L N Tvid W X Δ Θ Π Ψ 063 f1 f13 157 180 205 565 579 597 700 892 1006 1009 1010 1071 1079 1195 1216 1241 1242 1243 1253 1292 1342 1344 1365 1424 1505 1546 1646 2148 2174 Byz Lect itaur itc itf itq itr1 vg syrh syrpal copsa copbo arm eth geo slav Eusebian Canons (Basil) Augustine ς (WH [[τὸ ὑπὲρ... 20 ... ἐκχυννόμενον]])
verses 17, 18, 19 up to τὸ σῶμά μου (Western non-interpolation)] D ita itd itff2 iti itl
verses 19, 17, 18] (itb ite omit τὸ ὑπὲρ... ἀνάμνησιν) syrc
verses 19, add μετὰ τὸ δειπνῆσαι (20a), 17, add τοῦτο μου τὸ αἷμα ἡ καινὴ διαθήκη (20b), 18] (see Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; 1Corinthians 11:23-26) syrs
verses 19, 20] l32 syrp copbo(ms)
See A Student's Guide to New Testament Textual Variants

καὶ τὸ ποτήριον ὡσαύτως] p75 ‭א B L 579 pc itr1 WH
ὡσαύτως καὶ τὸ ποτήριον] A W Θ Ψ f1 f13 Byz it vg (syrp) syrh ς

ἐκχυννόμενον] WH
ἐκχυνόμενον] Byz ς

ποτήριον:
G4221
Neuter of a derivative of the alternate of G4095; a drinking vessel; by extension the contents thereof, that is, a cupful (draught); figuratively a lot or fate: - cup.


Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby iskander » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:24 am

Bernard Muller wrote:It looks to me the right translation, according to the observation of Kunigunde Kreuzerin, should be:
Lk 22:20 RSV "And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

This verse has a lot of variants (from http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php):

Luke 22:20 (Manuscript Comparator) (Audio: WH 1 WH 2 Byz)

καὶ τὸ ποτήριον ὡσαύτως μετὰ τὸ δειπνῆσαι, λέγων· Τοῦτο τὸ ποτήριον ἡ καινὴ διαθήκη ἐν τῷ αἵματί μου, τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐκχυννόμενον].
Variant readings

22:20 (Münster)
verses 17, 18, 19, 20] p75 ‭א A B C E G H K L N Tvid W X Δ Θ Π Ψ 063 f1 f13 157 180 205 565 579 597 700 892 1006 1009 1010 1071 1079 1195 1216 1241 1242 1243 1253 1292 1342 1344 1365 1424 1505 1546 1646 2148 2174 Byz Lect itaur itc itf itq itr1 vg syrh syrpal copsa copbo arm eth geo slav Eusebian Canons (Basil) Augustine ς (WH [[τὸ ὑπὲρ... 20 ... ἐκχυννόμενον]])
verses 17, 18, 19 up to τὸ σῶμά μου (Western non-interpolation)] D ita itd itff2 iti itl
verses 19, 17, 18] (itb ite omit τὸ ὑπὲρ... ἀνάμνησιν) syrc
verses 19, add μετὰ τὸ δειπνῆσαι (20a), 17, add τοῦτο μου τὸ αἷμα ἡ καινὴ διαθήκη (20b), 18] (see Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; 1Corinthians 11:23-26) syrs
verses 19, 20] l32 syrp copbo(ms)
See A Student's Guide to New Testament Textual Variants

καὶ τὸ ποτήριον ὡσαύτως] p75 ‭א B L 579 pc itr1 WH
ὡσαύτως καὶ τὸ ποτήριον] A W Θ Ψ f1 f13 Byz it vg (syrp) syrh ς

ἐκχυννόμενον] WH
ἐκχυνόμενον] Byz ς

ποτήριον:
G4221
Neuter of a derivative of the alternate of G4095; a drinking vessel; by extension the contents thereof, that is, a cupful (draught); figuratively a lot or fate: - cup.


Cordially, Bernard


Thank you Bernard,
Luke 22:20 is saying : this Cup is the New Testament based on my blood, which is poured out for you.
Luke 22.20 is a later understanding of the last supper; an updated map for a trip down memory lane.
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Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby Ben C. Smith » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:30 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:Cup cannot be poured out, but blood can.
By this logic, one cannot drink a cup, either. But then we have passages such as Isaiah 51.17 LXX:

Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, who have drunk the cup [πιοῦσα τὸ ποτήριον] of his fury at the hand of the Lord: for you have drunk out and drained the cup of calamity, the cup of wrath.
If you can drink it, you can pour it.

This is all just metonymy, a rather common figure of speech in most if not all languages: "cup" for "contents of cup" in this case.

Agreed. The problem here is that the content is the wine and not the blood. The metonymy (and also the metaphor) does not function in Luke.

Cup and wine are for taking and drinking. The blood is for pouring out.


I think I see what you mean. Luke "reaches across" the columns to link up the cup and the pouring:

wine for drinking = blood for pouring (symbolism/metaphor)
cup for drinking = wine for drinking (metonymy)
cup for drinking = cup for pouring (???)
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Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby spin » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:28 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
wine for drinking = blood for pouring (symbolism/metaphor)
cup for drinking = wine for drinking (metonymy)
cup for drinking = cup for pouring (???)

What does the Lucan cup contain?
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Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby Ben C. Smith » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:38 pm

spin wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
wine for drinking = blood for pouring (symbolism/metaphor)
cup for drinking = wine for drinking (metonymy)
cup for drinking = cup for pouring (???)

What does the Lucan cup contain?


"Original" Luke or the interpolation?
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Re: Is 1 Cor 11:23-27 an Interpolation? (split)

Postby spin » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:54 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
spin wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
wine for drinking = blood for pouring (symbolism/metaphor)
cup for drinking = wine for drinking (metonymy)
cup for drinking = cup for pouring (???)

What does the Lucan cup contain?


"Original" Luke or the interpolation?

"Original" is always problematic with this stuff. The form supported by the 1 Cor 11 variant. (I have been using the current Lucan material as a peg to date 1 Cor 11's last supper material.)
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