Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

[rakovsky]

Right now I find myself debating two opposite people on two threads.

Over on the "Resurrection" thread, Guiseppe is arguing that Christianity is a religion made up from paganism, especially the empty tomb story in all four gospels:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2015&start=60

Here you are arguing the opposite, John, that Christianity was originally about keeping the Torah and that the church leadership around James carried on emphasizing those strict Mosaic traditions.

[theterminator]

Jesus gave two examples where the Law said one thing and the righteous violated it. Jesus is supporting those violations openly. So Jesus was not about Torah-keeping in those cases.

did the samuel say that david was hungry? did samuel say david eat the bread? or was matthew reading these assumptions into 1 samuel?

[rakovsky]

Jesus gave two examples where the Law said one thing and the righteous violated it. Jesus is supporting those violations openly. So Jesus was not about Torah-keeping in those cases.

did the samuel say that david was hungry? did samuel say david eat the bread? or was matthew reading these assumptions into 1 samuel?

Or did Jesus, having the Holy Spirit, have the right answer to those two questions and Matthew recorded what Jesus said correctly?
Or did Jesus and Matthew know of an oral tradition that was known at that time to that effect?

For purposes of my discussions on this thread, I am just pointing out that there were cases where Jesus was not about Torah-keeping, since he commonly would say that the Law gave one rule and He instructed another.

Rashi (the famous Jewish commentator) paraphrases these verses in David's voice:
"and even if today it would be hallowed in the vessel: and even if today were the commencement of its sanctity on the table, I should (or perhaps it should read, ‘you would’) be obliged to take it from there and feed us, for a ravenous hunger has seized me, and my life is in danger. Thus it is explained in Men. (95b)."

[theterminator]

Or did Jesus, having the Holy Spirit, have the right answer to those two questions and Matthew recorded what Jesus said correctly?
Or did Jesus and Matthew know of an oral tradition that was known at that time to that effect?

Rashi (the famous Jewish commentator) paraphrases these verses in David's voice:
"and even if today it would be hallowed in the vessel: and even if today were the commencement of its sanctity on the table, I should (or perhaps it should read, ‘you would’) be obliged to take it from there and feed us, for a ravenous hunger has seized me, and my life is in danger. Thus it is explained in Men. (95b)."

but rashi seems to be adding words which are not found in 1 sam 21:6
was jesus and matthew doing what rashi was doing?

[theterminator]

Or did Jesus, having the Holy Spirit, have the right answer to those two questions and Matthew recorded what Jesus said correctly?
Or did Jesus and Matthew know of an oral tradition that was known at that time to that effect?

http://ehrmanblog.org/forum/the-histori ... ce/page-4/

"Jesus Before the Gospels: How the Earliest Christians Remembered, Changed, and Invented Their Stories of the Savior"

[rakovsky]

Or did Jesus, having the Holy Spirit, have the right answer to those two questions and Matthew recorded what Jesus said correctly?
Or did Jesus and Matthew know of an oral tradition that was known at that time to that effect?

http://ehrmanblog.org/forum/the-histori ... ce/page-4/

Ehrman has lots of knowledge from researching for decades. But some of his ideas I think are spurious (Doesn't he say that the apostles didn't teach that Jesus was God?) and what's worse, he charges you cash to talk with him or read his website for these debatable ideas, as in the webpage linked above.

[MrMacSon]

Ehrman has lots of knowledge from researching for decades. But some of his ideas I think are spurious (Doesn't he say that the apostles didn't teach that Jesus was God?)

Ehrman's wife is very religious, so I think that has tempered his approach to some things.

he charges you cash to talk with him or read his website for these debatable ideas, as in the webpage linked above.

He has said that the fees go to charity.

[theterminator]

Ehrman has lots of knowledge from researching for decades. But some of his ideas I think are spurious (Doesn't he say that the apostles didn't teach that Jesus was God?)

ehrman says that the historical jesus did not think he was god. ehrman says that the christian mark thought jesus was divine but in what sense? not divine in the sense that he was equal to yhwh, but created divine person.

[rakovsky]

Ehrman has lots of knowledge from researching for decades. But some of his ideas I think are spurious (Doesn't he say that the apostles didn't teach that Jesus was God?)

Ehrman's wife is very religious, so I think that has tempered his approach to some things.

he charges you cash to talk with him or read his website for these debatable ideas, as in the webpage linked above.

He has said that the fees go to charity.

OK. Maybe he has good reasons. But from my part I just prefer to give to charities that I choose on my own instead of using a pay site.

[John2]

Rakovsky,

I thought I would send you a link I found of you discussing the puns that exist in the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew on another forum. I gather from others that many of these puns do not exist in modern Hebrew translations (which I haven't checked, but one at least has the yeshua/yoshia pun in 1:21). These puns and word connections are the most interesting thing about Jesus for me (assuming they are genuine), and it looks like you are well aware of them and have your take on it.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/for ... ic=34810.0

I have to rely on Howard, Gordon and others as far as what they see as evidence of the transmission history of the text (Biblical, Mishnaic and later Hebrew) and its assimilation over time to the canonical Greek gospels goes, but these and other factors (like Shem Tov's comments and apparent similarities to ancient writings that he could not have known) persuade me that the ST Hebrew Matthew was at least not written by and pre-dates Shem Tov (and possibly Marranos as well).