Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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rakovsky
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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by rakovsky » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:48 am

For what it's worth, the gospel of John is biased toward John more than to any other apostle. Not to Peter or James.

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Adam
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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by Adam » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:20 pm

Strange. I'm not aware GJohn even mentions the Apostle John. He may be referred to in John 13 and 21, however.

John2
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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by John2 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:25 pm

I meant that the NT seems to be generally biased towards Paul in the sense of being "Pauline," but I'm not very acquainted with the Gospel of John, so I did some research:

Kostenberger (Pauline):

https://books.google.com/books?id=nvcQB ... NE&f=false

Rassimus (Pauline):

https://books.google.com/books?id=pN07v ... NE&f=false

Borgen (Pauline):

https://books.google.com/books?id=U7wFA ... NE&f=false

Barrett (Pauline):

https://books.google.com/books?id=tWR8D ... NE&f=false

Audin (Pauline):

https://books.google.com/books?id=ULGCB ... NE&f=false

Willitts (Pauline):

https://books.google.com/books?id=-ZxLA ... NE&f=false

Smith (non-Pauline):

https://books.google.com/books?id=tNJ7x ... NE&f=false

And just to be funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kwQHVOTRVY
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rakovsky
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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by rakovsky » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:56 pm

Adam wrote:Strange. I'm not aware GJohn even mentions the Apostle John. He may be referred to in John 13 and 21, however.
Who do you think the "Beloved disciple" is that the book focuses on so much?

John, James, and Peter were Pillars of the Church. The Beloved Disciple wasn't Peter.

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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by arnoldo » Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:12 pm


John2
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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by John2 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:14 pm

I have never explored the Gospel of John or the question of the identity of the Beloved Disciple before. So this is all new to me and I've got my student cap on and I'm just hovering around the edges for now.

The first thing I've noticed is this on the Wikipedia page for John the Evangelist:

"Considering that the author [of the Gospel of John] names (and therefore is not claiming to be) both Peter and James, it has generally been accepted that the author either was the Apostle John or was pretending to be."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Evangelist

But I can't find any references to James in the Gospel of John:

http://biblehub.net/searchgospels.php?q=james

Tabor argues that the Beloved Disciple is James:

"James D. Tabor argues that the beloved disciple is Jesus' brother James. One of several pieces of evidence Tabor offers is a literal interpretation of John 19:26, "Then when Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, Woman, behold your son."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple_whom_Jesus_loved

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/19-26.htm

The "his" part doesn't seem to be there in Greek, but there is a "the" (τὴν):

http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm

But the "mother" part (μητέρα) is rendered in the interlinear above as "[his] mother."

I don't know Greek so I don't know what to make of that.

The next verse seems to rule out Tabor's idea though, given the "from that time on" part:

"...and to the disciple, 'Here is your mother.' From that time on, this disciple took her into his home."

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/19-27.htm

But I haven't seen the other pieces of Tabor's argument yet.

I'm just thinking out loud. John is so different from the synoptics. This is new territory for me. I've deliberately avoided John because it is very off putting to me (e.g., "You are of your father, the devil"). But I want to look into the Beloved Disciple issue more.
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Adam
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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by Adam » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:21 pm

rakovsky wrote:
Adam wrote:Strange. I'm not aware GJohn even mentions the Apostle John. He may be referred to in John 13 and 21, however.
Who do you think the "Beloved disciple" is that the book focuses on so much?
John, James, and Peter were Pillars of the Church. The Beloved Disciple wasn't Peter.
Lazarus, John Mark, and Thomas are commonly suggested as the Beloved Disciple of (as I said) John 13 and 21. But once limited to these chapters (and excluding the Beloved Disciple from John 18 to 20 or anywhere else), I'm willing to go along with the traditional ascription of John the Apostle as the Beloved Disciple. He may have edited GJohn, but his additions were only first-hand eyewitness in John 13 and 21. (The disciple known to the high Priest and the "other disciple" in John 20 is John Mark. The disciple of John the Baptist In John 1 is Andrew, the author of the Signs Source. The writer of the Discourses is Nicodemus.)
Last edited by Adam on Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:25 am

arnoldo wrote:http://biblehub.com/mark/9-38.htm
gJohn no exorcisms.
which is the same as Luke 9:49

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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by arnoldo » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:42 am

MrMacSon wrote:
arnoldo wrote:http://biblehub.com/mark/9-38.htm
gJohn no exorcisms.
which is the same as Luke 9:49
Right, John objects to exorcisms in the other gospels and the gospel attributed to him has none.

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Re: Jesus' appearances to Peter and James

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:23 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
perseusomega9 wrote:
Wiki - The Talmud relates that Elisha ben Abuyah (a rabbi and Jewish religious authority born in Jerusalem sometime before 70 CE), also called Acher (אחר, "other", as he became an apostate), entered Paradise and saw Metatron sitting down (an action that is not done in The Presence of God). Elishah ben Abuyah therefore looked to Metatron as a deity and said heretically: "There are indeed two powers in Heaven!"[15]
Are these hints that Jews killed followers of the Two Powers in Heaven?
There is AFAIK no hint that his fellow Jews killed or attempted to kill Elisha ben Abuyah.

Andrew Criddle
That wasn't my point. I was just showing that Christians seemed to think their early leaders were killed by Jewish leadership for the same 'heresy'.

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