Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Ulan
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Ulan »

ebion wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:10 am I found his video series very helpful, as it conveys a lot visually - the photo montage Steven posted is a prime example.
You should read the threads on this forum about this topic. Those "visually helpful" photo montages are misleading. If you look into it, the proponents of the "modern forgery" claim have nothing, as they neglected to do the appropriate color corrections.

At the moment, there's not a single piece of evidence that is pointing to a modern forgery. That's why nobody in scholarship takes any of these claims seriously.
ebion
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by ebion »

Ulan wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:09 am
ebion wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:10 am I found his video series very helpful, as it conveys a lot visually - the photo montage Steven posted is a prime example.
You should read the threads on this forum about this topic. Those "visually helpful" photo montages are misleading. If you look into it, the proponents of the "modern forgery" claim have nothing, as they neglected to do the appropriate color corrections.
.
A read the threads in this forum, and the more detailed and higher quality threads in Steven's forum, which is why I posted a more detailed list of videos then Steven did. I stand by what I said.
Ulan wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:09 am At the moment, there's not a single piece of evidence that is pointing to a modern forgery. That's why nobody in scholarship takes any of these claims seriously.
Having looked at the evidence (try watching the videos), which is by now overwhelming, you would have had to do better than "nobody in scholarship" for me to take any of your claims seriously, . Ad homina doesn't go very far.
Ulan
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Ulan »

ebion wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:43 am Having looked at the evidence (try watching the videos), which is by now overwhelming, you would have had to do better than "nobody in scholarship" for me to take any of your claims seriously, . Ad homina doesn't go very far.
Where is that supposed "ad hominem" argument here?

Really, this "coloring the truth" business is the result of the inability to read the information that comes with the images on codexsinaiticus.org. But as you don't seem to be willing to even look for the explanation of why this is so on this forum, I'll link you to some of the relevant posts. Given you find photo montages helpful, let's take this one of two originals from codexsinaiticus.org, which underlines the issue with the direct image comparisons in those videos:
Image

All of the original images have internal standards that allow you to judge the true colors of the manuscripts. You can easily see from those standards that the images use different lighting conditions. I link you to the posts, because I don't want to copy all the explanatory text here:
viewtopic.php?p=144086#p144086
viewtopic.php?p=144117#p144117
viewtopic.php?p=144125#p144125
viewtopic.php?p=144139#p144139

You can also just read the relevant portion of that thread, starting from the first link.

Conclusion: The Leipzig and the London manuscripts actually look basically the same, as far as color is concerned. The London leaves, which are far more, have a few much more deteriorated parts, but the bulk of the text looks the same as the Leipzig codex. Or, in other words: the alleged "coloring" issue doesn't exist.
ebion
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The Sinaticus fraud is very important

Post by ebion »

Ulan wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:58 am Where is that supposed "ad hominem" argument here?
Nobody in scholarship is an ad hominum attack on me because it assumes I'm not in scholarship.

I think the Sinaticus fraud is very important for reasons Steven touches on in his Pure Bible Forum:
"And there even could be some elements involving the counter-Reformation attempt to make a new Bible version against the Received Text, and this sorely needed a full Bible companion manuscript to Vaticanus"
Steven would get roasted for posting links to his site, but I collected a few bookmarks to help me find the important threads over there, so I'll post them here in case someone wants to find some solid information (after working through the video links posted above - they vary in quality but there good stuff is worth the sifting, because the importance of this issue is gargantuan):
I won't be following this thread because have more fun things to do, and I think the only thing this thread should be doing is summarizing and precising the volumous and detailed work done over at Stevens PBF.
Last edited by ebion on Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ulan
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Ulan »

ebion wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:38 pm Nobody in scholarship is an ad hominum attack on me because it assumes I'm not in scholarship.
Well, I still assume you are not in any relevant field of scholarship, as a scholar in the relevant fields would know Latin (which you don't) or Greek (which you don't either). And no, that's still not an ad hominem attack, as that assumption results from factual statements you made regarding relevant factors for the question in place and doesn't concern your character or anything like that.

Furthermore, a scholar would be able to read the information that comes with the images on codexsinaiticus.org, which you seem to fail to be able to or chose to ignore.
ebion wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:38 pm I think the Sinaticus fraud is very important for reasons Steven touches on in his Pure Bible Forum:
"And there even could be some elements involving the counter-Reformation attempt to make a new Bible version against the Received Text, and this sorely needed a full Bible companion manuscript to Vaticanus"
But that's the issue, isn't it? The alleged Sinaiticus fraud would be important if there were any indication that it, indeed, happened. Which there isn't, which is the main reason nobody wants any links to that specific forum. That's the issue with apologetics: They start with the conclusion, look for stuff they think corroborates their conclusion and ignore everything that contradicts it. Which isn't scholarship, btw.
ebion wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:38 pm I won't be following this thread because have more fun things to do...
Yeah, like resurrecting this old, obsolete thread.
But thanks for giving me an insight into your thought patterns. Duly noted.
ebion
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by ebion »

Ulan wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:51 pm Well, I still assume you are not in any relevant field of scholarship, as a scholar in the relevant fields would know ...
Unless of course the field of scholarship was spectroscopy...

Or computer image processing...

Or both.
Ulan
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Ulan »

ebion wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 12:10 am Unless of course the field of scholarship was spectroscopy...
Which, without access to the actual original document to perform this spectroscopy on, is irrelevant.
ebion wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 12:10 am Or computer image processing...
Aren't we all? Anyway, doesn't matter.
ebion wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 12:10 amOr both.
Yeah, sure. I also have my Ph.D. or can claim "expertise in spectroscopy", but who cares.

I can see whether someone deals with the relevant information or not. It doesn't matter which expertise someone claims, it only matters which expertise someone shows.
ebion
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Re: The massive collusion in this Fraud: Sinaiticus

Post by ebion »

Ulan wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 1:23 am I can see whether someone deals with the relevant information or not. It doesn't matter which expertise someone claims, it only matters which expertise someone shows.
And whether someone has with the relevant information or not shows; if they've watched the videos in the OP, and watched the videos I posted links to, and read the threads that I posted links to, they might have something to say. The threads on PBF are very substantial.

I find there's really a broad spectrum attack by the "influencers" to not only hide the evidence, but hide the massive collusion in this Fraud: Lutherns, Vatican, Ste. Catherines, Jerusalem Patriarchy all working together. In terms of ecclesiastical forgeries, Sinaiticus takes top prize.There must somehow be important on a global scale.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by RandyHelzerman »

I can’t even believe that grown men would take this at all seriously. As a matter of fact I don’t even know any 12 year olds who take anything from Jack chick and his co-bozos seriously.
Ulan
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Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: The massive collusion in this Fraud: Sinaiticus

Post by Ulan »

ebion wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:09 pm And whether someone has with the relevant information or not shows; if they've watched the videos in the OP, and watched the videos I posted links to, and read the threads that I posted links to, they might have something to say. The threads on PBF are very substantial.
The issue with that "relevant information" you mention is that it is of low quality and sits on baseless assumptions. Garbage in, garbage out.
ebion wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:09 pm I find there's really a broad spectrum attack by the "influencers" to not only hide the evidence, but hide the massive collusion in this Fraud: Lutherns, Vatican, Ste. Catherines, Jerusalem Patriarchy all working together. In terms of ecclesiastical forgeries, Sinaiticus takes top prize.There must somehow be important on a global scale.
Yeah, sure. As usual, the conspiracy theorist conveniently forgets that the relevant text is in hands of several large secular institutions that have no interest in hiding anything. The folks at the British Library were originally quite forthcoming, but they basically shut communications down when they looked at the quality of the alleged "evidence" for forgery. It's a normal reaction to unfounded speculations and outright false claims.

The four links I posted, taken together, do away with the "coloring" issue. That's the topic of this thread vanishing into thin air. Of course, even Steven knows this, as he changes his tune regarding the coloring according to the question asked.

And the idea that the Vatican and other conservative Christian institutions would be in a conspiracy to show that the early (if we consider more than three centuries after the time the story plays out "early") transmission of the Bible was faulty is, to put it bluntly, quite ridiculous.
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