Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Maestroh
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:03 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Maestroh » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:58 pm

Steven Avery wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:58 pm
Thanks for bumping this up.

Earlier, was told about your comedy act, and look forward to the replay.
You mean you lied and weren't ACTUALLY WATCHING IT at the time????

(You always give away way too much of how much you lie).

Steven Avery
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Steven Avery » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:14 pm

Maestroh wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:58 pm

You mean you lied and weren't ACTUALLY WATCHING IT at the time????
(You always give away way too much of how much you lie).
You are very strange with your fabrications.

And I still have not seen more than about five minutes of the David W. Daniels presentation, which had some Spanish translation and was going over a couple of scripture issues.

And I'm not sure if he has put it online (apparently his will be more easy to follow than any DBS vid.)

When David's Sinaiticus vid is up, and I know where it is, I will place it on Facebook on the PureBible group.

And I first heard of your bumbling appearance from David, after the talk, and we had a little Messenger-laugh. He described the clueless approach to Donald Waite, and I told him that was likely Bill Brown, he thanked me for the identification. When you put up the video, it was even funnier.

Steven Avery
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Steven Avery » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:25 pm

Bill Brown tries to make a couple of points on a forum where it is hard to have real conversation.

This is the post, #129 that has a couple of points to address:

Simonides reports on Sinaiticus before the supposed red cloth Tischendorf discovery
https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theol ... ost6080964

Steven Avery
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Steven Avery » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am

Bill Brown
"In fact, a devious hack with an agenda could cherry pick the quotations of Simonides and compile whatever story he wants to believe."

===

Steven Avery
This is simply not true. Most of the Simonides account is quite consistent. The dates are locations are severely restricted by the events. The lack of any other provenance is a major support of his story.

The knowledge of Benedict as a Bible scholar was an imperative to accomplish this task. On that point, a review of the Zosimas Bible will help.

The colouring of the 1859 part, and the amazing condition of the manuscript and ink, are amazing "facts on the ground". Plus he was able to point out many details like the 1844 Tischendorf theft.

============================

Bill Brown
"This, of course, is why nobody trusts a word Simonides says - including Farrer, who basically said Simonides was a lying gas bag."

Steven Avery
The Farrer account is overall excellent. Today we have a ton more collaboration of the Simonides account. And Tischendorf is the major liar in the Sinaiticus accounts. The account of Simonides fits the actual "facts on the ground" in a far superior way.

The Lamprou Mt. Athos catalog, published in the 1890s, was correctly noted by Farrer as a major confirmation of the Simonides-Kallinikos account

============================

Steven Avery
Benedict had worked on this for years before the Simonides involvement.

Bill Brown
"You were corrected on this claim on Early Church Writings on March 18, 2017. Your claim is false."

Steven Avery
This can be a primary study in our discussion. Presumably this is your "correction".

Bill Brown
Mr Avery ...informs us all:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/2 ... ost3088227
By his own account, Simonides did not collate manuscripts. Any degree of preparation at that stage was Benedict.
As you were informed at that time, Simonides in an alleged 1860 letter (never authenticated as such):
"Dionysus...declined...when he objected...we straightway inspected the oldest manuscripts preserved in Mt Athos...And the learned Benedict taking in his hands a copy of the Moscow edition of the OT and NT (published at the expense of the illustrious brothers Zosimas, and by them presented to the Greeks), collated it, with my assistance

Steven Avery
The Zosimas edition was almost surely only used for the OT and maybe apocrypha. And I would say there is some minor telescoping in the Simonides sentences above. Simonides was relating events 20+ yeas earlier, when he was younger, and he would tend to emphasize his own contributions and do some embellishment.

And you are the one cherry-picking the quotes here, so when my PureBibleForum is at its new home, hopefully the next day or two, I will add more on this question, especially of when Benedict began the project.

===========================

Bill Brown
First of all, Benedict DIED in the spring of 1840,

Steven Avery
Probably later, I'll plan on pulling that out as well

=========================

Bill Brown
and the idea wasn't even hatched until November 1839 (this giving Simonides the benefit of the doubt he's telling the truth). So Benedict couldn't have written very much in the first place. (And does Avery have some writings of Benedict that he has examined that nobody else has seen?)

Steven Avery
See above on the starting date. We can be fairly certain that Benedict had done lots of study, research and collation in the earlier years. I'll be happy to check the various data and report back.

As for the Benedict textual history and viewpoints, David Daniels has pulled out material directly on that question, which is not in other sources.

=========================

Bill Brown
Dionysius was the calligrapher who said it was too tough a task (according to Simonides) and now we're supposed to believe he wrote some of it (according to Avery).

Steven Avery
Sure, that is possible.
Also there are three Dionysius notes in the text, which I highlight in a section on "palaeographic puzzles".

========================

Bill Brown
The phony letter from Kallinikos alleges that there was an acrostic saying, "Simonides' entire work."

Steven Avery
Do you have the actual quote?

=========================

Bill Brown
Bear in mind that Simonides never produced a single eyewitness after claiming he had four.

Steven Avery
Each case is unique. e.g. He mentioned a John Prodromus of Galata coffee-house, and nobody bothered to check this up in the debates. If I remember, his lithograph connection in Odesssa was confirmed. The Kallinikos connection got major support in the Lamprou catalog.

=========================

A few interesting questions here, which I will be happy to study iron sharpeneth.

And I will simply ignore the silly stuff, rants and vulgarity from Bill.

=========================

Steven

Maestroh
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:03 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Maestroh » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:10 am

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
This is simply not true. Most of the Simonides account is quite consistent.
Consistently a lie.

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
The dates are locations are severely restricted by the events. The lack of any other provenance is a major support of his story.
No, it's a major support of YOUR story.

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
scholar was an imperative to accomplish this task. On that point, a review of the Zosimas Bible will help.

The colouring of the 1859 part, and the amazing condition of the manuscript and ink, are amazing "facts on the ground". Plus he was able to point out many details like the 1844 Tischendorf theft.
This is literally not evidence of.....anything at all...
Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
The Farrer account is overall excellent. Today we have a ton more collaboration of the Simonides account. And Tischendorf is the major liar in the Sinaiticus accounts. The account of Simonides fits the actual "facts on the ground" in a far superior way.
Farrer....you mean the guy whose book was on forgeries and had an entire chapter on the forger Simonides, where he admitted in the last paragraph the guy was a lying sack of garbage?
Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
The Lamprou Mt. Athos catalog, published in the 1890s, was correctly noted by Farrer as a major confirmation of the Simonides-Kallinikos account
Actually, it proves nothing at all, but I know with whom I'm dealing.
Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
Benedict had worked on this for years before the Simonides involvement.
Again, not true. Just a made up claim after the fact.

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
The Zosimas edition was almost surely only used for the OT and maybe apocrypha. And I would say there is some minor telescoping in the Simonides sentences above. Simonides was relating events 20+ yeas earlier, when he was younger, and he would tend to emphasize his own contributions and do some embellishment.
All you gave there was your opinion of things...not evidence of anything.

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
And you are the one cherry-picking the quotes here,
This is the textbook definition of "gaslighting."

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
Probably later, I'll plan on pulling that out as well
Of course.. he HAD to die later so your theory of nonsense can work......
Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
See above on the starting date.
You mean where I just refuted it, and the only response was something where you added words like "surely"?
Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
We can be fairly certain that Benedict had done lots of study, research and collation in the earlier years. I'll be happy to check the various data and report back.
"We can be fairly certain" means, "I'm just making this up and hoping nobody calls me for it."

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
As for the Benedict textual history and viewpoints, David Daniels has pulled out material directly on that question, which is not in other sources.
David Daniels....the man who lied in front of the DBS that he didn't know Avery's view on the Trinity.....
Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
Do you have the actual quote?
You supposedly have done all this research, you better know where it is.
Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
Each case is unique. e.g. He mentioned a John Prodromus of Galata coffee-house, and nobody bothered to check this up in the debates. If I remember, his lithograph connection in Odesssa was confirmed. The Kallinikos connection got major support in the Lamprou catalog.
In other words, nothing.


Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:24 am
And I will simply ignore the silly stuff, rants and vulgarity from Bill.
"Boo hoo, teacher, he's being so mean to me actually expecting me to demonstrate logical coherence and fidelity to fact!"
Last edited by Maestroh on Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

Maestroh
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:03 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Maestroh » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:28 pm

Steven Avery wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:25 pm
Bill Brown tries to make a couple of points on a forum where it is hard to have real conversation.
It isn't hard to have any conversation here - but you refrain because you know I'm onto your deceit.

Whining about stuff said elsewhere when YOU are the one who travels from board to board setting down this nonsense is hilarious.
Last edited by Maestroh on Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Steven Avery
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Steven Avery » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:19 am

Hi Bill Brown,

Thanks for demonstrating once again your instability and unfitness for real discussion.

Maestroh
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:03 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Maestroh » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:18 pm

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:19 am
Hi Bill Brown,

Thanks for demonstrating once again your instability and unfitness for real discussion.
Guy that spends years insulting me and calling me names - gets insulted and called names in return.

Cries like baby.
Last edited by Maestroh on Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Steven Avery
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Steven Avery » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:51 pm

More potty mouth.

Pure Bible Forum
how could the young Simonides do all that intense textual work in a short period?
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.ph ... eriod.596/

It’s likely that the Simonides work was mostly NT and Hermas, maybe preparing the text of Barnabas.

Steven Avery
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Steven Avery » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:44 pm

Journal of Sacred Literature
Miscellanies
https://archive.org/details/journalsacr ... /page/n229

Constantine Simonides c. Dec 16, 1862

"Any person learned in palaeography ought to be able to tell at once that it is a MS. of the present age. But I may just note that my uncle Benedict corrected the MS. in many places, and as it was intended to be re-copied, he marked many letters which he purposed to have illuminated. The corrections in the handwriting of my uncle, I can, of course, point out ; as also those of Dionysius the caligraphist."

=============

And today it is very easy to see that "a MS. of the present age".

=============

The same section includes referencing John Prodromos and his specific coffee house in Galata, Constantinople. An example of a very specific reference that did not get any research from his opponents. Or, if they did any checking, nothing was made public.

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