Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:25 am

Steven Avery wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:38 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:24 pm

Can you please clarify the relationship between the 8 holies in Sinaiticus and the Octoechos, which refers to the 8 modes?
There are two elements in play.

If the Octoechos is the source for the eight holies, it is highly unlikely to be an early source.The eight-mode system only has its beginnings around the time of John of Damascus (see the reference for Pseudo-John of Damascus on the page). The dots on the extra Holies would also reflect this type of source, Simonides said that they were meant for illumination in the planned later draft.

Another possibility was simply the scribe having a good time adding Holies. (Highly unlikely.) Since there are late mss. with other numbers. Once again, though, this is a phenomenon that begins around 1000 AD.
Okay, but what I am asking is a bit different. What relationship is there in the first place between church songs being sung in 8 different musical modes, on the one hand, and a single word from a single song being repeated 8 times, on the other? Why would one suggest the other in any way? An example of the Octoechos system may be perused on Google Books. The songs each fall under one of the numbered eight tones; I can find no correspondence between this arrangement and the eightfold repetition of any one of the words from any of the songs. Indeed, the Trisagion ("holy, holy, holy," only thrice) is referred to a handful of times, the phrase "thrice holy" being employed on pages 16 and 129 and the title "Trisagion" on pages 161 and 167. To suggest that the word "holy" ought to be uttered 8 times because a separate book of songs contains 8 tonal sections seems a bit like suggesting that Walt Whitman ought to have repeated the word "death" 12 times (instead of 10 or 11) in "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking" because Leaves of Grass was originally published with 12 poems in it.
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:24 pm

John Doe wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:45 am
Anyway, glad to be a member here and look forward to gleaning from this site.
Welcome, John Doe.
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:55 pm

Steven Avery wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:44 am
Do you have any examples of texts being adjusted based on this "not .. unexpected" significance?
What do you mean by adjusted? A discrepancy can crop up due to a myriad of reasons, be it copyist fatigue or a misreading from the source manuscript.

In fact, that Isaiah 6:3 in Siniaticus retains the 3 holy holy holy would lean towards this being the case. Why didn't the forger put insert an extra five holys?
And if you do, are they from a much later Byzantine era than the supposed writing of Sinaiticus?
Why should they be from the Byzantine era? Nearly all of our manuscripts that contain some portion of Revelation prior to Siniaticus, i.e. ca. 300, is missing verse 8. Meaning we cannot say for certain if this is a common textual variant or not.

As to poisoning the well, simple facts can show that the well has problems. eg. When you try to discuss the "phenomenally good condition" of Sinaiticus, normal manuscript science is suspended, since the presumption of a 4th century Sinaiticus most be true, to the supporters of the Sinaiticus 300s myth.
Compared to most of our other manuscripts, Siniaticus is in "phenomenally good condition".

You're going in circles.
btw, we know have the 1933 Newsreel of the Sinaiticus condition. Amazing condition, as in the BBC video. This is on a Brent Nongbri blog page.

Plus , we see that the 1933 Sinaiticus had intact squires, corroborating the history that Tischendorf in 1844 simply stole five intact quires, plus part of a sixth.
And? What are you saying with this?

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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Steven Avery » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:26 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:55 pm

Why should they be from the Byzantine era?
The whole concept of emphasizing the Holies and their expanstion comes from the Byzantine era, starting at the time of John of Damascus.

There is no evidence before this time, such as in the various Revelation commentaries, or the Codex Alexandrinus or other mss. in Greek or Latin or any versional language.

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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Steven Avery » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:30 am

Steven Avery wrote:If the Octoechos is the source for the eight holies, it is highly unlikely to be an early source.The eight-mode system only has its beginnings around the time of John of Damascus (see the reference for Pseudo-John of Damascus on the page). The dots on the extra Holies would also reflect this type of source, Simonides said that they were meant for illumination in the planned later draft.

Another possibility was simply the scribe having a good time adding Holies. (Highly unlikely.) Since there are late mss. with other numbers. Once again, though, this is a phenomenon that begins around 1000 AD.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:25 am
Okay, but what I am asking is a bit different. What relationship is there in the first place between church songs being sung in 8 different musical modes, on the one hand, and a single word from a single song being repeated 8 times, on the other? Why would one suggest the other in any way? An example of the Octoechos system may be perused on Google Books. The songs each fall under one of the numbered eight tones; I can find no correspondence between this arrangement and the eightfold repetition of any one of the words from any of the songs. Indeed, the Trisagion ("holy, holy, holy," only thrice) is referred to a handful of times, the phrase "thrice holy" being employed on pages 16 and 129 and the title "Trisagion" on pages 161 and 167. To suggest that the word "holy" ought to be uttered 8 times because a separate book of songs contains 8 tonal sections seems a bit like suggesting that Walt Whitman ought to have repeated the word "death" 12 times (instead of 10 or 11) in "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking" because Leaves of Grass was originally published with 12 poems in it.

Neither of us are Byzantine choral experts. When I discuss this with a top scholar in those realms, he sees the eight Holies connection with the Octoechos. Your attempted analogy is far too overdone, to put it mildly.

And the general concept is all expansions (e.g. 7 -8 -9). This arises late, the oddball Sinaiticus idea of a fourth-century expansion matching later Byzantine adjustments is quite anachronistic. thus supporting once more the 1800s Sinaiticus.

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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:58 am

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:26 am
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:55 pm

Why should they be from the Byzantine era?
The whole concept of emphasizing the Holies and their expanstion comes from the Byzantine era, starting at the time of John of Damascus.
I fail to see why this matters.
There is no evidence before this time, such as in the various Revelation commentaries, or the Codex Alexandrinus or other mss. in Greek or Latin or any versional language.
But it could not possibly have been a mere copyist mistake, of which repetition and duplication are common in manuscripts.

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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:59 am

Steven Avery wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:30 am
Steven Avery wrote:If the Octoechos is the source for the eight holies, it is highly unlikely to be an early source.The eight-mode system only has its beginnings around the time of John of Damascus (see the reference for Pseudo-John of Damascus on the page). The dots on the extra Holies would also reflect this type of source, Simonides said that they were meant for illumination in the planned later draft.

Another possibility was simply the scribe having a good time adding Holies. (Highly unlikely.) Since there are late mss. with other numbers. Once again, though, this is a phenomenon that begins around 1000 AD.
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:25 am
Okay, but what I am asking is a bit different. What relationship is there in the first place between church songs being sung in 8 different musical modes, on the one hand, and a single word from a single song being repeated 8 times, on the other? Why would one suggest the other in any way? An example of the Octoechos system may be perused on Google Books. The songs each fall under one of the numbered eight tones; I can find no correspondence between this arrangement and the eightfold repetition of any one of the words from any of the songs. Indeed, the Trisagion ("holy, holy, holy," only thrice) is referred to a handful of times, the phrase "thrice holy" being employed on pages 16 and 129 and the title "Trisagion" on pages 161 and 167. To suggest that the word "holy" ought to be uttered 8 times because a separate book of songs contains 8 tonal sections seems a bit like suggesting that Walt Whitman ought to have repeated the word "death" 12 times (instead of 10 or 11) in "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking" because Leaves of Grass was originally published with 12 poems in it.

Neither of us are Byzantine choral experts. When I discuss this with a top scholar in those realms, he sees the eight Holies connection with the Octoechos. Your attempted analogy is far too overdone, to put it mildly.
Maybe (though you would have to explain how or why it is overdone, rather than just claiming it to be so), but I am still seeing exactly zero connection between the number of musical modes a liturgy uses and the number of individual praise words a single song uses. I am not an expert on Byzantine music, to be sure, but I do know music theory quite well, so I will be able to follow along if your expert has something to say on the topic. Who is your top expert, then?
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:02 am

Neither of us are Byzantine choral experts. When I discuss this with a top scholar in those realms, he sees the eight Holies connection with the Octoechos. Your attempted analogy is far too overdone, to put it mildly.
Citation needed. Who was it and what did they say?
And the general concept is all expansions (e.g. 7 -8 -9). This arises late, the oddball Sinaiticus idea of a fourth-century expansion matching later Byzantine adjustments is quite anachronistic. thus supporting once more the 1800s Sinaiticus.
See above. Mistakes such as duplication happen frequently in manuscripts that had to be handwritten over and over again.

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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by bbyrd009 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:31 am

Peter Kirby wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:24 pm
John Doe wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:45 am
Anyway, glad to be a member here and look forward to gleaning from this site.
Welcome, John Doe.
Jesus of Nazareth "John Doe, from Nowhere"
in rabbi-speak, possibly
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Re: Coloring the Truth: Sinaiticus

Post by Steven Avery » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:51 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:02 am
Neither of us are Byzantine choral experts. When I discuss this with a top scholar in those realms, he sees the eight Holies connection with the Octoechos. Your attempted analogy is far too overdone, to put it mildly.
Citation needed. Who was it and what did they say?
Private at this time.
The gentleman did wonder if perhaps the octoechos was pre-figured, (pre-echoed :) ) in Sinaiticus.

That is a standard approach to Sinaiticus anachronisms, like its Revelation text being a pre-Andreas commentary.

A really interesting example is trying to date the three crosses note as hundreds of years after ms. creation.
The note explains the Chronicles scribal duplication.

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