Iosephiana

[Secret Alias]

McGrath agrees that the case for the historicity of Jesus is stronger than John the Baptist - http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringo ... ptist.html

[Secret Alias]

Typing writing on my phone at 7 am. What I meant to say is that the gospel was altered by (the writings of) Josephus.

[MrMacSon]

Typing writing on my phone at 7 am. What I meant to say is that the gospel was altered by the writings of Josephus.

aha. I'd agree with the view that *various NT narratives were influenced by the writings of Josephus*

[Secret Alias]

Sievers notes on the connection between 'baptism' and John Hyrcanus - "it is noteworthy that excavations have uncovered numerous miqvaot, most of them dating to the Hasmonean period, and many located in places under the direct control of the Hasmoneans, such as their winter palace in Jericho." https://books.google.com/books?id=hCMwA ... sQ6AEIHDAA

[Secret Alias]

The attack against the 'demon pools' of Solomon at Jerusalem are interesting too. I've already argued that the tradition that Bethsaida = the temple of Jerusalem (house of demons) is related to this. The Marcionite gospel begins at Bethsaida (not Capernaum) according to Ephrem's testimony. The statement that follows that an attempt to push Jesus off a cliff - and, as I have noted in another thread - the question about the origin of the baptism of John, may argue for the negative attribution of the 'authority' behind the baptism which converted many (Edomites, Itureans, Samaritans, Galileans etc) to the religion of the Jews.

[Secret Alias]

The invention of John the Baptist may well have been used to disguise a negative association with Jewish ritual immersion. Remember also that 'Edomites' were blamed for the Jewish War in Josephus.

[MrMacSon]

Mystical Mikveh Immersion

The Jewish Background of Christian Baptism by Ron Moseley, Ph. D.

Jewish Mikveh

"Baptism as a rite of immersion was not begun by Christians but was taken by them from Jewish and pagan forms...." - Dr. Merrill Tenney, the editor of the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible

The term mikveh in Hebrew literally means any gathering of waters, but is specifically used in Jewish law for the waters or bath for the ritual immersion. Ancient sages teach that the word mikveh has the same letters as Ko(v)Meh, the Hebrew word for "rising" or "standing tall," therefore we see the idea of being baptized "straightway."

The building of the mikveh was so important in ancient times it was said to take precedence over the construction of a synagogue. On the third day of creation we see the source of the word mikveh for the first time in Genesis 1:10 when the Lord says,

"...to the gathering (mikveh) of waters, He called seas."

Because of this reference in Genesis the ocean is still a legitimate mikveh to orthodox Jews.

Tovelei Shaharit (Dawn Bathers)

The Essenes were anciently known as regular practicioners of daily immersion. In the Talmud these daily Mikveh practicioners are called tovelei shaharit or "dawn bathers."Not only Nasarenes, but several other Jewish groups observed ritual immersion every day to assure readiness for the coming of the Messiah. Epiphanius mentioned one of these groups called Hemerobaptists which means "daily bathers" in Greek. The Clementine Homilies, or Recognitions of Clement, tell us that Peter always washed, often in the sea, before dawn which was no doubt a custom of all Nasarenes of his time. This practice received great attention by early historical writers on the Essenes. Qumran is certainly filled with ritual bathing pools and one quite large community Miqvah has been uncovered outside of the Essene Synagogue / Temple site in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem.

Ancient dawn bathing Nasarenes used at least three forms of Baptism, or mikveh purifications. We know this because the surviving remnants of these Nasarenes, the Nasorai sect (Mandeans), still preserve these forms of this ancient Nasarene purification rite once practiced and promoted by Yeshua (Jesus). They are the daily Rishama Mikveh immersion, performed before dawn. The Tamasha immersion, and the Masbuta immersion. The surviving Mandean versions of these are:

• RISHAMA BAPTISM: The first of the miqvah purifications performed is the rishama (signing), the priests presence is not required, such that each man or woman is his or her own priest or priestess. This should be performed daily, and with covered head, just before sunrise after the evacuation of the bowels and before all religious ceremonies.
  
  TAMASHA BAPTISM: The second, the tamasha, is a simple triple immersion in the river, again this is performed without the aid of the priest or priestess. In present Mandean tradition, it must be performed by women after menstruation and after childbirth. Both man and woman must perform this ablution immediately after sexual intercourse, it must be performed after touching a dead body, after nocturnal pollution or any serious defilement or contact with a defiled person, as impurity is contagious - a person touching an unclean person, himself becomes unclean. These practices are related to the ritual purity laws of the Jews, and were no doubt taught and practiced to some degree, and after their own fashion, by early Nasarenes (See the Clementine Homilies). In the Qumran Temple Scroll, the first of the regulations concerning people who were excluded from the holy temple precincts concerned a man who had a nocturnal emission. He was not permitted to re-enter “until three days have passed. He shall wash his garments and bathe on the first day, and on the third day he shall wash his garments and bathe, and after sunset he shall enter the sanctuary.”
  
  MASBUTA BAPTISM: The third ablution, or ‘full baptism’, encompasses all aspects of baptism and must be performed by a priest or priestess. This ablution is known as masbuta (maswetta) includes the sacraments of oil, bread (known as pihtha) and water (from the river only, known as mambuha), the kushta (the hand grasp and kiss) and the final blessing by laying the right hand of the priest or / and priestess on the head of the baptised person. The masbuta should take place on the first day of the week, in association with major initiations and after major or shameful defilement’s. Major sins such as theft, murder, and adultery require more than one baptism.

Non-Essene Mikveh Traditions

The rabbinical tradition attributes, in its Mishnah, to Ezra a decree that each male should immerse himself before praying or studying. Immersion was so important among the Pharisees that it occurred before the high Priest conducted the service on the Day of Atonement, before the regular priests participated in the Temple service, before each person entered the Temple complex, before a scribe wrote the name of God, as well as several other occasions.

http://essene.com/B'nai-Amen/MysticalImmersion.htm

[MrMacSon]

There seem to be several attempts to claim Christian baptism started with Jewish baptism/water immersion.

eg

• http://jesus-messiah.com/html/mikva-baptisms.html
  
  http://jesus-messiah.com/html/mikveh.html

These ignore pagan immersion practices

[Secret Alias]

Not true.

[Secret Alias]

I wonder if this is enough evidence to suggest that John Hyrcanus adapted a pre-existent water reservoir into a ritual immersion pool which survived in the Herodian period as the 'Pool of Siloam' From the Wikipedia article:

Ancient records report that during the Second Temple period, there was a lower pool. During a sewer excavating near the present-day pool by Ir David Foundation workers, in the autumn of 2004, Archaeologist Eli Shukron (working in the Israel Antiquities Authority) accompanied by the "Israel Nature and Parks Authority" Ori Orbach (who was asked to document in photographs the sewer excavation by Eli Shukron) uncovered stone steps, It became obvious to Eli Shukron and Ronny Reich (prominent archaeologists) that these steps were likely to have been part of the Second Temple period pool. Excavations commenced and confirmed the initial supposition; the find was formally announced on August 9, 2005, and received substantial international media attention.[3][4] The pool is less than 70 yards from the edge of the Byzantine reconstruction of a pool previously thought to be the Pool of Siloam. This small pool collected some of the water as it emptied there at the southern end of Hezekiah's tunnel. The water continued on through a channel into the recently discovered Pool of Siloam. The source of the water is from the Gihon Spring, located at the northern end of Hezekiah's tunnel on the eastern side of the City of David. An ancient pool (Upper Pool) existed near the Gihon Spring but was no longer used after King Hezekiah redirected the waters to the western side of the city.[5]

The lower pool is not perfectly rectangular, but a soft trapezoid. There are three sets of five steps, two leading to a platform, before the bottom is reached, and it has been suggested that the steps were designed to accommodate various water levels. The pool is stone-lined, but underneath, there is evidence of an earlier version that was merely plastered (to help it retain water). Coins found within this plaster date from the time of Alexander Jannaeus (104–76 BC), while a separate collection of coins, dating from the time of the First Jewish–Roman War (AD 66–70), were also found.

How much of the pool and its surrounding structures were a result of monumental construction by Herod the Great is not yet understood (as of September 2006); nor is the relationship of this pool to the earlier one (i.e., why it was built when the earlier pool already existed). A portion of this pool remains unexcavated, as the land above it is owned by a nearby Greek Orthodox church and is occupied by an orchard known as the King's Garden (compare Nehemiah 3:15).

As a freshwater reservoir, it would have been a major gathering place for ancient Jews making religious pilgrimages to the city. The Gospel of John suggests that it was probably used as a mikvah (ritual bath),[6] although mikvahs are usually much smaller in size; if the pool were a mikvah, it would be the largest ever found by a substantial margin.[7] Yoel Elitzur has proposed that the pool was used for swimming rather than ritual immersion.[8] It is thought that the current structure was originally the Shrine of the Four Nymphs (Tetranymphon), a nymphaeum built by Hadrian during the construction of Aelia Capitolina in 135[9][10][11] and mentioned in Byzantine works such as the 7th-century Chronicon Paschale; other nymphaea built by Hadrian, such as that at Sagalassos, are very similar.[12]

If you look at the location of the pool (and the Marcionite gospel beginning with Jesus's descent to 'the house of demons' and the presence of demons at the Pool of Siloam) this would be a perfect place for the reconstruction I have made of 'the Jews' attempting to push Jesus off a precipice. Notice proximity of the pool to a precipice.