Iosephiana

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by Secret Alias »

Is Josephus ever understood to become a Christian somewhere? All signs point to this being the last drama in his story.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by Ben C. Smith »

MrMacSon wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
... but I believe he is referring especially to the following from the Suda, and particularly to the use of ὑπομνήματα (memoirs):

So we found Josephus, the historian of the capture of Jerusalem (of whom Eusebius the [spiritual son] of Pamphilus[4] makes much mention in his Ecclesiastical History), saying openly in his memoirs of his captivity that Jesus served in the holy place with the priests. When we found this told by Josephus, a man of ancient times who lived not long after the apostles, we sought to find also from the inspired Scriptures the confirmation of such a discourse.

εὕρομεν οὖν Ἰώσηπον, τὸν συγγραφέα τῆς ἁλώσεως Ἱεροσολύμων, οὗ μνήμην πολλὴν Εὐσέβιος ὁ Παμφίλου ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησιαστικῇ αὐτοῦ ἱστορίᾳ ποιεῖται, φανερῶς λέγοντα ἐν τοῖς τῆς αἰχμαλωσίας αὐτοῦ ὑπομνήμασιν, ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ μετὰ τῶν ἱερέων ἡγίαζε. τοῦτο οὖν εὑρόντες λέγοντα τὸν Ἰώσηπον, ἄνδρα ἀρχαῖον ὄντα καὶ οὐ μετὰ πολὺν χρόνον τῶν ἀποστόλων γενόμενον, ἐζητήσαμεν εὑρεῖν καὶ ἐκ τῶν θεοπνεύστων γραφῶν τὸν τοιοῦτον λόγον βεβαιούμενον.

Ben.
Do you mean -
  • "... (of whom Eusebius [the spiritual son] of Pamphilus ...) ??
"...the historian of the capture of Jerusalem (of whom Eusebius the [spiritual son] of Pamphilus makes much mention in his Ecclesiastical History), saying openly...."

(Not my own translation, by the way.)
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote:Is Josephus ever understood to become a Christian somewhere? All signs point to this being the last drama in his story.
I think Whiston himself thought Josephus was a Christian.
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote:Is Josephus ever understood to become a Christian somewhere? All signs point to this being the last drama in his story.
Louis Feldman made this suggestion about the author of the Josippon.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by Secret Alias »

Thank you Ben. Most useful. The connection between Jesus being a priest and reading Isaiah 61 in the synagogue leads us to the proclamation to the captives in the read text:

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives (αἰχμαλώτοις), and recovery of sight to the blind; to declare the acceptable year of the Lord
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Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by Secret Alias »

For those who care notice how the earliest mention of the 'Sebuaeans' comes at the time of Ezra (i.e. that sebuaean = captives):

Since (Jews and Samaritans) would meet at one season, (each) with their gathering for the festival, clashes would result. Besides, when Ezra was building Jerusalem after the return from Babylon, and the Samaritans asked if they could contribute aid to the Jews and take part in the building, and were refused by Ezra himself, and by Nehemiah. then in rage and anger the Sebuaeans changed the dates of these festivals, first because of their anger at Ezra, but secondly for the reason I have mentioned, the one which provoked them to battle because of the people crossing their land. (Panarion 10, 11)
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Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by Secret Alias »

And here is our connection with Hegesippus. For Hegesippus says that from the seven sects, came "Simon, whence the Simonians, and Cleobius, whence the Cleobians, and Dositheus, whence the Dositheans, and Gorthaeus, whence the Gorathenians, and the Masbotheans" (Eccl. Hist., IV.22.1).

Masbotheans are identical with the Sebueans according to Fossum:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pzo6K ... ns&f=false

However instead of the root 'to baptize' I would argue (from Epiphanius above) that the root is 'captives.' שבי is captives in Hebrew, שביית is Aramaic for 'captivity.' שביתא שבייתא = captives. But the link with Hegesippus has been made. The Masbotheans unlike all the other sects named by Hegesippus do not have founder. They are not named after a teacher.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by Secret Alias »

For those who care:

Joel 3:1 In those days and at that time, when I restore the שְׁב֥וּת (= King James captivity NIV fortunes) of Judah and Jerusalem
Joel 3:8 - I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans (לִשְׁבָאיִ֖ם LXX 'into captivity' = αἰχμαλωσίαν) to a nation far away." The LORD has spoken.

Do you see what I am talking about? Do you see the Hebrew root of Hegesippus's Masbotheans and the Sebueans? There must have been a class of 'captives' who were experiencing spiritual Geworfenheit after the destruction of the temple.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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MrMacSon
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by MrMacSon »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
... but I believe he is referring especially to the following from the Suda, and particularly to the use of ὑπομνήματα (memoirs):

So we found Josephus, the historian of the capture of Jerusalem (of whom Eusebius the [spiritual son] of Pamphilus[4] makes much mention in his Ecclesiastical History), saying openly in his memoirs of his captivity that Jesus served in the holy place with the priests. When we found this told by Josephus, a man of ancient times who lived not long after the apostles, we sought to find also from the inspired Scriptures the confirmation of such a discourse.

εὕρομεν οὖν Ἰώσηπον, τὸν συγγραφέα τῆς ἁλώσεως Ἱεροσολύμων, οὗ μνήμην πολλὴν Εὐσέβιος ὁ Παμφίλου ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησιαστικῇ αὐτοῦ ἱστορίᾳ ποιεῖται, φανερῶς λέγοντα ἐν τοῖς τῆς αἰχμαλωσίας αὐτοῦ ὑπομνήμασιν, ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ μετὰ τῶν ἱερέων ἡγίαζε. τοῦτο οὖν εὑρόντες λέγοντα τὸν Ἰώσηπον, ἄνδρα ἀρχαῖον ὄντα καὶ οὐ μετὰ πολὺν χρόνον τῶν ἀποστόλων γενόμενον, ἐζητήσαμεν εὑρεῖν καὶ ἐκ τῶν θεοπνεύστων γραφῶν τὸν τοιοῦτον λόγον βεβαιούμενον.

Ben.
MrMacSon wrote: Do you mean -
  • "... (of whom Eusebius [the spiritual son] of Pamphilus ...) ??
Ben C. Smith wrote:
"...the historian of the capture of Jerusalem (of whom Eusebius the [spiritual son] of Pamphilus makes much mention in his Ecclesiastical History), saying openly...."

(Not my own translation, by the way.)
Cheers, Ben. I thought that was the case - I should have asked a more open question i.e. -
  • *Should that be "... (of whom Eusebius [the spiritual son] of Pamphilus ...) ??*
From Wikipedia -
Eusebius

Early life
Soon after Pamphilus settled in Caesarea (ca. 280s), he began teaching Eusebius, who was then somewhere between twenty and twenty-five.[20] Because of his close relationship with his schoolmaster, Eusebius was sometimes called 'Eusebius Pamphili': "Eusebius, son of Pamphilus".[notes 2] The name may also indicate that Eusebius was made Pamphilus' heir.[23] Pamphilus gave Eusebius a strong admiration for the thought of Origen.[24]
  • notes 2. There are three interpretations of this term ["Eusebius, son of Pamphilus"]:
    • (1) that Eusebius was the "spiritual son", or favored pupil, of Pamphilus;[21]

      (2) that Eusebius was literally adopted by Pamphilus;[20] and

      (3) that Eusebius was Pamphilus' biological son.
    The third explanation is the least popular among scholars. The scholion on the Preparation for the Gospels 1.3 in the Codex Paris. 451 is usually adduced in support of the thesis. Most reject the scholion as too late or misinformed, but E. H. Gifford, an editor and translator of the Preparation, believes it to have been written by Arethas, the tenth-century archbishop of Caesarea, who was in a position to know the truth of the matter.[22]
    • 20 Barnes, Timothy D. (1981). Constantine and Eusebius. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-16530-6; p 94.
      21 Quasten*, 3.310.
      22 Wallace-Hadrill, D. S. (1960). Eusebius of Caesarea. London: A. R. Mowbray; 12 n. 1.
      23 Wallace-Hadrill, 11–12.
      24 Quasten*, 3.309–10.

      * Patrology vols. 1-5 ??
Wikipedia goes on -
Neither Pamphilus nor Eusebius knew Origen personally;[25] Pamphilus probably picked up Origenist ideas during his studies under Pierius (nicknamed "Origen Junior"[26]) in Alexandria.[27] In Caesarea, Origenist thought was continued in the generation after his death by Theotecnus, bishop of the city for much of the late 3rd century and an alumnus of Origen's school.[28]

Eusebius' Preparation for the Gospel bears witness to the literary tastes of Origen: Eusebius quotes no comedy, tragedy, or lyric poetry, but makes reference to all the works of Plato and to an extensive range of later philosophic works, largely from Middle Platonists from Philo to the late 2nd century.[29]

Whatever its secular contents, the primary aim of Origen and Pamphilus' school was to promote sacred learning. The library's biblical and theological contents were more impressive: Origen's Hexapla and Tetrapla; a copy of the original Aramaic version of the Gospel of Matthew; and many of Origen's own writings.[20] Marginal comments in extant manuscripts note that Pamphilus and his friends and pupils, including Eusebius, corrected and revised much of the biblical text in their library.[20] Their efforts made the hexaplaric Septuagint text increasingly popular in Syria and Palestine.[30] Soon after joining Pamphilus' school, Eusebius started helping his master expand the library's collections and broaden access to its resources. At about this time Eusebius compiled a 'Collection of Ancient Martyrdoms', presumably for use as a general reference tool.[20]

In the 290s, Eusebius began work on his magnum opus, the Ecclesiastical History, a narrative history of the Church and Christian community from the Apostolic Age to Eusebius' own time. At about the same time, he worked on his Chronicle, a universal calendar of events from the Creation to, again, Eusebius' own time. He completed the first editions of the Ecclesiastical History and Chronicle before 300.[31]

25 Barnes, Constantine and Eusebius, 93, 95; Louth@, "Eusebius and the Birth of church history", 266.
26 Jerome, de Viris Illustribus 76, qtd. and tr. Louth@, "Eusebius and the Birth of church history", 266.
26 Barnes, Constantine and Eusebius, 93, 95.
28 Barnes, Constantine and Eusebius, 93.
29 Barnes, Constantine and Eusebius, 93–94.
30 Barnes, Constantine and Eusebius, 95.
31 Barnes, Constantine and Eusebius, 277; & Wallace-Hadrill, 12–13.

@ Louth, Andrew (2004). "Eusebius and the Birth of Church History". In Young, Frances; Ayres, Lewis; Louth, Andrew. The Cambridge history of early Christian literature. Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press. pp. 266–274. ISBN 0-521-46083-2.
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Post by maryhelena »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Secret Alias wrote:Is Josephus ever understood to become a Christian somewhere? All signs point to this being the last drama in his story.
I think Whiston himself thought Josephus was a Christian.
Whiston seems to have thought Josephus a Christian due to the ‘christian’ passages in Josephus as well as the interest of Josephus in Daniel.

‘Since it appears to me very evident, that when Josephus wrote his Antiquities, and therein gave us the remarkable testimonies already recited concerning John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and his brother James the Just, he was, in his own conscience, a Nazarene or Ebionite Christian, it may not be amiss to inquire at what time of his life and writing be became such.

So that he could not well avoid seeing, that by Daniel’s prophecies Jesus of Nazareth was that Messiah…

Nor can I do other than suspect that it was his through consideration of these prophecies of Daniel, when in the course of his narration he came naturally to treat of them, and with which he appears so greatly affected, that principally contributed to his conversion to Christianity…

So that, upon the whole, it is most probable, that when Josephus wrote his seven books of the Jewish Wars, about A.D. 75, he was an unbelieving Jew; but that when he was writing the tenth book of his Antiquities, about A.D.84, he became a Christian. Nor is there, I think, any more indication in the former nine books of Antiquities that he was so at that time, than in the seven books of the Jewish Wars; though afterward we have frequent indication of it in the eleven following books of those Antiquities’.

Dissertation IV

(the A.D. 84 is possibly a misprint in the published book - i.e. 94 c.e. the more likely, consensus date.....)
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