The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
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Secret Alias
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Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
It is remarkable how similar Irenaeus and Eusebius are in terms of 'smoothing over' difficulties for the emergence of a universal Church. At least we know something about Eusebius. It is difficult for me at least to see Eusebius's interest in 'Catholic truths' (that happen to coincide with the reconciling Father and Son with a strong expression of monarchist principles) as an echo of Irenaeus's a hundred years earlier. To this end could anyone naturally careless about these thing and not be an Imperial ass-kissing courtier? I don't think so. But that's me.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
Ben,
Setting aside the issue of the Roman bishops list for a moment, I've been looking at the issue of whether or not Epiphanius used Hegesippus directly or indirectly and this is what I see so far.
First, as a book I linked to earlier says, "...the relevant passages [from Hegesippus] appear only in Eusebius' Historia ecclesiastica and Epiphanius' Panarion," and note 47 to this says that these passages in the latter's case are in Pan. 29.4 and 78.13-14:
https://books.google.com/books?id=9bbWb ... us&f=false
And the passages in Pan. 29.4 appear to be these (29.4.2-4):
"And moreover I find that he was of Davidic descent because of being Joseph's son, and that he was born a Nazirite—for he was Joseph's first-born, and (thus) consecrated. And I have found further that he also functioned as (high)-priest in the ancient priesthood. Thus he was permitted to enter the Holy of Holies once a year, as scripture says the Law directed the high priests to do. For many before me—Eusebius, Clement and others—have reported this of him. He was allowed to wear the priestly tablet besides, as the trustworthy authors I mentioned have testified in those same historical writings."
http://www.masseiana.org/panarion_bk1.htm#29.
And while Hegesippus no doubt falls under the category of the "others" besides Eusebius and Clement who "have reported this of him," all the notes for this passage say that this information can be found in the passages of Hegesippus that Eusebius cites ("29.19 Eus. H. E. 2.23.5"; "29.20 Eus. H. E. 2.23"; "29.21 This is said of John at Eus. H. E. 3.31.3").
The book above also mentions Pan. 78.13-14 and I can't find that online, but Painter cites it here and his notes for it (35 and 36) also mention the passages cited by Eusebius (and the Letter of James). Note 36 says:
"Here Epiphanius is dependent on the witness of Hegesippus to the martyrdom of James now found in Eusebius 2.23.4-18, where, as in this quote from Epiphanius, James is called 'the Just,' and it is said that he wore no wool, that his knees grew hard like a camel's through kneeling before the Lord, that he took no baths."
https://books.google.com/books?id=0_wkO ... me&f=false
I haven't seen where Epiphanius uses the word "Memoirs" in reference to Hegesippus' writings, but this of course could have also come from Eusebius.
Setting aside the issue of the Roman bishops list for a moment, I've been looking at the issue of whether or not Epiphanius used Hegesippus directly or indirectly and this is what I see so far.
First, as a book I linked to earlier says, "...the relevant passages [from Hegesippus] appear only in Eusebius' Historia ecclesiastica and Epiphanius' Panarion," and note 47 to this says that these passages in the latter's case are in Pan. 29.4 and 78.13-14:
https://books.google.com/books?id=9bbWb ... us&f=false
And the passages in Pan. 29.4 appear to be these (29.4.2-4):
"And moreover I find that he was of Davidic descent because of being Joseph's son, and that he was born a Nazirite—for he was Joseph's first-born, and (thus) consecrated. And I have found further that he also functioned as (high)-priest in the ancient priesthood. Thus he was permitted to enter the Holy of Holies once a year, as scripture says the Law directed the high priests to do. For many before me—Eusebius, Clement and others—have reported this of him. He was allowed to wear the priestly tablet besides, as the trustworthy authors I mentioned have testified in those same historical writings."
http://www.masseiana.org/panarion_bk1.htm#29.
And while Hegesippus no doubt falls under the category of the "others" besides Eusebius and Clement who "have reported this of him," all the notes for this passage say that this information can be found in the passages of Hegesippus that Eusebius cites ("29.19 Eus. H. E. 2.23.5"; "29.20 Eus. H. E. 2.23"; "29.21 This is said of John at Eus. H. E. 3.31.3").
The book above also mentions Pan. 78.13-14 and I can't find that online, but Painter cites it here and his notes for it (35 and 36) also mention the passages cited by Eusebius (and the Letter of James). Note 36 says:
"Here Epiphanius is dependent on the witness of Hegesippus to the martyrdom of James now found in Eusebius 2.23.4-18, where, as in this quote from Epiphanius, James is called 'the Just,' and it is said that he wore no wool, that his knees grew hard like a camel's through kneeling before the Lord, that he took no baths."
https://books.google.com/books?id=0_wkO ... me&f=false
I haven't seen where Epiphanius uses the word "Memoirs" in reference to Hegesippus' writings, but this of course could have also come from Eusebius.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
I see that Lawlor discusses this here (https://books.google.com/books?id=4pPYA ... us&f=false) and I will give it a closer look when I get time, but regarding the extra information that Epiphanius knows about James (and Jewish Christians in general) that isn't in Hegesippus via Eusebius, offhand I suppose it could have come from the other Jewish Christian writings he knew, the Ascents of James and the Travels of Peter:
Pan 29.16.7:
"They lay down certain ascents and instructions in the supposed 'Ascents of James,' as though he were giving orders against the temple and sacrifices, and the fire on the altar—and much else that is full of nonsense."
Pan. 29.15.1-3:
"But they use certain other books as well—supposedly the so-called Travels of Peter written by Clement, though they corrupt their contents while leaving a few genuine passages. Clement himself convicts them of this in every way in his general epistles which are read in the holy churches, because his faith and speech are of a different character than their spurious productions in his name in the Travels. He himself teaches celibacy, and they will not accept it. He extols Elijah, David, Samson and all the prophets, whom they abhor. In the Travels they have changed everything to suit themselves and slandered Peter in many ways, saying that he was baptized daily for purification as they are. And they say he abstained from flesh and dressed meat as they do, and any other dish made from meat—since both Ebion himself, and Ebionites, entirely abstain from these."
Pan 29.16.7:
"They lay down certain ascents and instructions in the supposed 'Ascents of James,' as though he were giving orders against the temple and sacrifices, and the fire on the altar—and much else that is full of nonsense."
Pan. 29.15.1-3:
"But they use certain other books as well—supposedly the so-called Travels of Peter written by Clement, though they corrupt their contents while leaving a few genuine passages. Clement himself convicts them of this in every way in his general epistles which are read in the holy churches, because his faith and speech are of a different character than their spurious productions in his name in the Travels. He himself teaches celibacy, and they will not accept it. He extols Elijah, David, Samson and all the prophets, whom they abhor. In the Travels they have changed everything to suit themselves and slandered Peter in many ways, saying that he was baptized daily for purification as they are. And they say he abstained from flesh and dressed meat as they do, and any other dish made from meat—since both Ebion himself, and Ebionites, entirely abstain from these."
Last edited by John2 on Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
And the reference above that "Clement himself convicts them ... in every way in his general epistles" reminds me of Hegesippus' negative remarks against 1 Clement according to Gobarus (if that's what they are).
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
Concerning the Ascents of James and the Travels of Peter, Butz writes:
"As Keith Akers, who has made an in-depth comparison, puts it, '... virtually everything that Epiphanius says about the Ebionites is duplicated in either the [Pseudo-Clementine] 'Recognitions' or the [Pseudo-Clementine] 'Homiles,' or both.' Of course, this correspondence could be due to Epiphanius's having at least parts of the Pseudo-Clementine literature in front of him. Epiphanius says that he has, in fact, seen the Ebionite gospel, the Ebionite 'Acts of the Apostles,' and two documents tantalizingly titled the 'Degrees of James' and the 'Travels of Peter.'"
https://books.google.com/books?id=b7bnv ... us&f=false
I'm a proponent of an Ebionite Grundschrift.
http://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/j ... y-jones-2/
"As Keith Akers, who has made an in-depth comparison, puts it, '... virtually everything that Epiphanius says about the Ebionites is duplicated in either the [Pseudo-Clementine] 'Recognitions' or the [Pseudo-Clementine] 'Homiles,' or both.' Of course, this correspondence could be due to Epiphanius's having at least parts of the Pseudo-Clementine literature in front of him. Epiphanius says that he has, in fact, seen the Ebionite gospel, the Ebionite 'Acts of the Apostles,' and two documents tantalizingly titled the 'Degrees of James' and the 'Travels of Peter.'"
https://books.google.com/books?id=b7bnv ... us&f=false
I'm a proponent of an Ebionite Grundschrift.
http://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/j ... y-jones-2/
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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Secret Alias
- Posts: 18922
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
Now I figured out why 'John2' has such an obtuse view of this issue. It's his neo-Eisenmannian interest in James and the Essenes and Qumran and all that junk. That's why he can't think that this whole succession list is garbage. Because he 'believes' in James. The one thing you learn at this forum is that most thinking, most investigation that goes on in a human mind is self-serving. Give up 'believing' in things like this. The succession list was almost certainly fictitious. None of this stuff is real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Vaihinger
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
Yep, & the Irenaeus literature seems to be a vehicle to do it midway (or just over midway) from the start of the outlined Christian chronology to the 'Eusebian' period.Secret Alias wrote: It is remarkable how similar Irenaeus and Eusebius are in terms of 'smoothing over' difficulties for the emergence of a universal Church.
- (just as the 'Ignatian' literature does it midway (or just over midway) from the start of the outlined Christian chronology to the 'Irenaeus period')
Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
Stephan wrote:
"Now I figured out why 'John2' has such an obtuse view of this issue. It's his neo-Eisenmannian interest in James and the Essenes and Qumran and all that junk. That's why he can't think that this whole succession list is garbage. Because he 'believes' in James. The one thing you learn at this forum is that most thinking, most investigation that goes on in a human mind is self-serving. Give up 'believing' in things like this. The succession list was almost certainly fictitious. None of this stuff is real."
Actually I am only interested in Christian origins, and by necessity this includes Jewish Christianity and James. I have no belief in James (or any other Christian) beyond this, and I try to not mention Eisenman's name around you because I know that it upsets you and I dislike rancor.
"Now I figured out why 'John2' has such an obtuse view of this issue. It's his neo-Eisenmannian interest in James and the Essenes and Qumran and all that junk. That's why he can't think that this whole succession list is garbage. Because he 'believes' in James. The one thing you learn at this forum is that most thinking, most investigation that goes on in a human mind is self-serving. Give up 'believing' in things like this. The succession list was almost certainly fictitious. None of this stuff is real."
Actually I am only interested in Christian origins, and by necessity this includes Jewish Christianity and James. I have no belief in James (or any other Christian) beyond this, and I try to not mention Eisenman's name around you because I know that it upsets you and I dislike rancor.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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Secret Alias
- Posts: 18922
- Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am
Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
So there 'really was' a Jacob of the flesh. You're certain he's not the result of the retelling of the Esau-Jacob myth? My point was to explain your obtuseness regarding the use of Hegesippus by Irenaeus, Eusebius and Epiphanius. You'd sacrifice what we know almost for certain (i.e. that the information from Hegesippus was recycled by the three aforementioned Church Fathers) in order to save some scrap of information (like no more than a fable or myth) about a disciple named 'Jacob' the brother of the human Jesus who's band of brothers established the first Church in Jerusalem. Sorry but that's reckless and obtuse.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The (Hegesippan?) list of Roman bishops.
Go here: https://archive.org/stream/eusebianaess ... 9/mode/2up. Bottom of page 9, and on to page 10.John2 wrote:https://archive.org/stream/eusebianaess ... /mode/2upI haven't seen where Epiphanius uses the word "Memoirs" in reference to Hegesippus' writings, but this of course could have also come from Eusebius.
Epiphanius could have gotten the title Memoirs from Eusebius, but not the exact contents that he imputes to those Memoirs. Eusebius merely says that Hegesippus commented on 1 Clement; Epiphanius is much more specific about it.
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