Message

Justin Meggitt: The Madness of King Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

Justin Meggitt: The Madness of King Jesus

Postby toejam » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:33 pm

Looks like an interesting upcoming book:

http://www.amazon.com/Madness-King-Jesus-Reasons-Execution/dp/1848854102/
Why was Jesus killed by the Romans? Was he a dangerous subversive, executed because he declared himself to be the Son of God? Or was he silenced for another - far more disturbing - reason that has so far been overlooked? Most scholars believe that Jesus died on a cross because he was viewed as a messianic pretender who challenged Roman rule and had to be eliminated, whatever the cost. But Justin Meggitt suggests otherwise: that the rulers of Judaea did not perceive Jesus as being any threat at all. So why else would this 'King of the Jews' have been executed while his disciples were allowed to go free? Usual practice in the empire was to hunt down perceived 'rebels' in order to squash all sources of opposition. Yet Peter and the other apostles remained entirely at large to spread their gospel. All the evidence points to the fact that Jesus' executioners thought him to be an inconsequential and deluded lunatic, to be mocked as they taunted other madmen of the day, and then put out of his misery. Rather than wanting to liquidate a threatening political agitator, the motives of the Romans were rather those of pragmatic - or gratuitously sadistic - policing. Drawing on fresh sources and rare medical texts about mental illness in antiquity, this provocative and daringly original book - written by a leading scholar of Christian history - explores the full implications of Jesus as 'mad' for our understanding of his mission and message.

Justin J Meggitt is Senior Lecturer in the Study of Religion and the Origins of Christianity in the University of Cambridge and Fellow and Director of Studies in Theology at Hughes Hall, Cambridge. He is the author of two previous books: Paul, Poverty and Survival (1998) and The First Christians (2008).
My study list: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bignell/judeo-christian-origins-bibliography/851830651507208
User avatar
toejam
 
Posts: 687
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:35 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Advertisements

by »

 

Re: Justin Meggitt: The Madness of King Jesus

Postby Giuseppe » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:40 pm

As Neil would say (I go to memory), ''there is good divine planning divine here''.

But we preach Christ crucified, a scandal for the Jews and folly for Pagans"

(1 Col 1:23)

Why then the lunatic Jesus ben Anania is remembered by Josephus, while Jesus not?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
 
Posts: 2121
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italia

Re: Justin Meggitt: The Madness of King Jesus

Postby toejam » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:08 am

^I suspect, with little confidence, that Josephus said *something* about Jesus. But tampering by later Christian scribes means that we really can't know what he said or did not say. An argument from a hypothetical silence in Josephus doesn't amount to much. He might have said quite a lot, but it being edited down extensively (e.g. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Tacitus' source for Jesus was Josephus' original). It could also be that Jesus ben Ananias (as told by Josephus) and Jesus of Nazareth (as told by the gospels) are different branches of traditions that stem from same historical figure - "Don't you remember that crazy guy Jesus? You know, the one who said the temple would fall?".
My study list: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bignell/judeo-christian-origins-bibliography/851830651507208
User avatar
toejam
 
Posts: 687
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:35 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Justin Meggitt: The Madness of King Jesus

Postby maryhelena » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:31 am

It looks as though the book is a re-issue. Amazon uk don't have it available right now but state it's published date as December 2012.


An article that makes mention of the book:

"(Why) Was Jesus the Galilean Crucified Alone? Solving a False Conundrum", Journal for the Study of the New Testament 36.2 (2013) 127-154.

https://www.academia.edu/8139537/_Why_W ... 13_127-154

Mark Goodacre has links to articles in the JSNT (if anyone has subscription...)

Journal for the Study of the New Testament
1 June 2007; Vol. 29, No. 4

The Madness of King Jesus: Why was Jesus Put to Death, but his Followers were not?
Justin J. Meggitt
Journal for the Study of the New Testament 2007;29 379-413

Why was Jesus Crucified, but his Followers were not?
Paula Fredriksen
Journal for the Study of the New Testament 2007;29 415-419

Meggitt on the Madness and Kingship of Jesus
Joel Marcus
Journal for the Study of the New Testament 2007;29 421-424


http://ntweblog.blogspot.co.uk/2007/05/ ... ament.html
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
maryhelena
 
Posts: 1477
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Justin Meggitt: The Madness of King Jesus

Postby Giuseppe » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:03 am

toejam, very thanks for this reporting. I will read that book absolutely.

It helps to understand that for the first evangelist was not Pilate the true material killer of Jesus but the anonymous Roman soldiers subjected to Pilate.

This is expected under the mythicism because it is consistent with 1 cor 2:6-8 and pauline cosmology.

Paul sees the celestial Jesus in the third heaven (2 Cor 12).

Jesus comes down from heaven not being recognized by the angels of the place, for each celestial level he goes through. Eventually Jesus is killed by the demonic rulers of this aeon on the sub-lunary realm (=the first heaven?).

If for Paul the celestial levels are 3, then there are precisely three different order of angels not recognizing the true identity of Jesus.

The first order of angels is allegorized in the first Gospel by the scribes and pharisees. They don't recognize Jesus (even if they should be in theory the angels more close to God...).

The second order of angels is allegorized by Pilate (and Herod, if Mcn is the first Gospel). They don't recognize Jesus.

The third order of angels are ''the archons of this eon'' and they are allegorized by the Roman soldiers: they were ''gratuitously sadistic''. They recognize Jesus only after his death:

The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”

(Mark 15:38-39)


Therefore it's not a coincidence that the hierarchy of angels who do not see Jesus corresponds to a corresponding human hierarchy on Earth: the priests, the governors, and the soldiers. Jesus had to go through the judgment of priests, governors and ordinary soldiers precisely in that sequential order to simulate the passage top-down of the Son through the heavens to the lowest heaven.
Last edited by Giuseppe on Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
 
Posts: 2121
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italia

Re: Justin Meggitt: The Madness of King Jesus

Postby Giuseppe » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:06 am

An argument from a hypothetical silence in Josephus doesn't amount to much.

In general an argument from Silence in Josephus doesn't work, ok. But here we are talking about a similar death under very similar conditions: to be considered a mere object of sadistic torture by anonymous Roman soldiers. It's surprising that a Jesus ben Ananias is mentioned while Jesus (who is called Christ) is not mentioned at all.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
 
Posts: 2121
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italia

Re: Justin Meggitt: The Madness of King Jesus

Postby toejam » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:06 pm

^Not only am I saying that an argument from silence doesn't work, but that we don't even know if there was silence in Josephus to begin with, so it's doubly doomed. What would be damning for historicism would be if Josephus said something like: "And then there are those wretched Christians who believe a celestial Messiah was crucified in the heavens. They tell lies conflating their heavenly myth into human history and fool many of the Jews and Greeks".. But do we have anything like that? Nah.

Anyway, it would be appreciated if we could stick on topic, rather than forcing every thread down into an argument for one's pet theory.
My study list: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bignell/judeo-christian-origins-bibliography/851830651507208
User avatar
toejam
 
Posts: 687
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:35 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Advertisement

by »

 


Return to Christian Texts and History

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aleph One, Ben C. Smith, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], JoeWallack, lsayre, Majestic-12 [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 61 guests