Nazareth, the neverending story?

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Ulan
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by Ulan » Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:20 am

spin wrote:It's strange that New Testament commentators almost invariably don't touch on the life-long Nazirite when considering Naziritism in respect to Jesus.
Most of the time when it gets touched on, it gets immediately thrown out again because "Jesus drinks wine". Which will probably always be a problem if you treat a gospel text as designed as a coherent whole from the get-go and not as a mix of different ideas from different sources.

The Nazirite explanation has quite a few advantages. One aspect is that Jesus would have to die first in order to be ritually clean at his death, which is a possible explanation for his early death that I don't have read anywhere yet.

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spin
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by spin » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:41 am

Ulan wrote:
spin wrote:It's strange that New Testament commentators almost invariably don't touch on the life-long Nazirite when considering Naziritism in respect to Jesus.
Most of the time when it gets touched on, it gets immediately thrown out again because "Jesus drinks wine". Which will probably always be a problem if you treat a gospel text as designed as a coherent whole from the get-go and not as a mix of different ideas from different sources.
For clarity's sake, there are two trajectories for Nazirites: 1) those who take a religious vow, which requires the individual to adhere to certain restrictions, involving abstinence from alcohol and refraining from cutting one's locks; and 2) those who are born as Nazirites, who don't necessarily have restraints—consider Samson, who could carouse and have women. The latter are consider holy from birth. In Luke, Elizabeth blesses both Mary and the unborn Jesus (1:42), which may be symbolic of preparing Jesus as a Nazirite from birth. Samson's mother prepared herself following the instructions of her angel not to drink wine (etc). Similarly Samuel's mother Hannah asks god to bless her with a child—she has drunk no wine—and god accedes. (Though it's obvious in the biblical text Samuel's Naziritism is only made explicit in a copy of the book of Samuel found at Qumran.) The prayer that Mary speaks after Elizabeth blesses her is modeled on Hannah's prayer of thanks for her child.

Some commentators dealing with Naziritism in relation to Nazarene, only to dismiss it because they only consider the Nazirite vow.
Ulan wrote:The Nazirite explanation has quite a few advantages. One aspect is that Jesus would have to die first in order to be ritually clean at his death, which is a possible explanation for his early death that I don't have read anywhere yet.
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spin
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by spin » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:46 am

iskander wrote:Is Naziritism the subject of this thread?
Not in itself. The actual topic is how the gospels came to have the Greek form used by our translators today.

However, I have also been dealing with a few issues specifically arising from the first paragraph of the conclusion posted in the O.P. Naziritism is discussed in the context of its relationship with the Jesus descriptor, Nazarene, so as to help clarify aspects of that first paragraph.
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iskander
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by iskander » Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:06 am

spin wrote:
iskander wrote:Is Naziritism the subject of this thread?
Not in itself. The actual topic is how the gospels came to have the Greek form used by our translators today.

However, I have also been dealing with a few issues specifically arising from the first paragraph of the conclusion posted in the O.P. Naziritism is discussed in the context of its relationship with the Jesus descriptor, Nazarene, so as to help clarify aspects of that first paragraph.
Thank you.
It has been suggested that the nazirite corpse is ritually clean,
One aspect is that Jesus would have to die first in order to be ritually clean at his death,...
Does your research support this suggestion?

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spin
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by spin » Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:11 am

iskander wrote:
spin wrote:
iskander wrote:Is Naziritism the subject of this thread?
Not in itself. The actual topic is how the gospels came to have the Greek form used by our translators today.

However, I have also been dealing with a few issues specifically arising from the first paragraph of the conclusion posted in the O.P. Naziritism is discussed in the context of its relationship with the Jesus descriptor, Nazarene, so as to help clarify aspects of that first paragraph.
Thank you.
It has been suggested that the nazirite corpse is ritually clean,
One aspect is that Jesus would have to die first in order to be ritually clean at his death,...
Does your research support this suggestion?
As Naziritism is discussed in the context of its relationship with the Jesus descriptor, Nazarene, sorry, no.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:03 pm

I dunno if this helps, but here it is
we have some good evidence in the gospel texts for a progression of related terms:
  • 1. Regarding Nazareth, there is no parallel in the synoptic gospels regarding its use, so it cannot be seen as part of the earliest tradition.

    Early in the christian tradition there was Ναζαρηνος (used 4 times in Mk, two of which were carried over into Lk)

    2. Mt removes all references to Ναζαρηνος sometime before including references to Nazara.

    3. As both Mt and Lk know Nazara, but in different contexts, we have evidence for a Nazara tradition which precedes both of those gospels; but which developed after Mk, which thinks that Capernaum is the home of Jesus (Mk 2:1).

    4. Mt accepts Nazara, using it twice 2:23 and 4:13, and justifies Nazara with a warped reference to Jdg 13:5, “he will be called a Ναζωραιος” in 2:23.

    Nazareth finally comes in Lk in the birth narrative, and in Mt as an interpolation into some Marcan material (Mt 21:11).
Chronologically:
  • 1. Ναζαρηνος 2. Nazara 3. Ναζωραιος 4. Nazareth
That’s the basic evidence.

https://deusdiapente.wordpress.com/category/zeta/

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:26 pm

MrMacSon wrote:I dunno if this helps, but here it is
Well, spin should be familiar with most of that, since it is his own writing. :)
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MrMacSon
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:09 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote: Well, spin should be familiar with most of that, since it is his own writing. :)
I did wonder :cheers: :thumbup:

iskander
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by iskander » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:41 pm

spin wrote:.....
As Naziritism is discussed in the context of its relationship with the Jesus descriptor, Nazarene, sorry, no.
Thank you, Spin
Peter McKenna's paper is interesting.

Peter McKenna is well known to many of us as a longstanding member of Liverpool Humanist Group. He is a Senior Lecturer in Computer Science at Manchester Metropolitan University. Originally from Larne in County Antrim, his first degree at Liverpool University was in Classics and Ancient Greek

In December 2010, Peter’s paper “Jesus Nazōraios: hidden truths revealed?” received “Honorable Mention” at the awarding of the 2011 “Mythycist Prize”, which was sponsored by The Mythicists’ Forum, a consortium of prominent New Testament scholars, together with American Atheists, Inc.

His short essay reviewed the linguistic issues surrounding the cognates Nazareth/Nazoraios/Nazarene. It attempted to show how the title “Nazoraion” led to the name of Jesus’ New Testament hometown.
http://livehum.org/2013/04/04/jesus-man-or-myth/
http://www.mythicistpapers.com/Mckenna2010HM.pdf

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MrMacSon
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Re: Nazareth, the neverending story?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:24 pm

spin wrote:
iskander wrote:Is Naziritism the subject of this thread?
Not in itself. The actual topic is how the gospels came to have the Greek form used by our translators today.

... Naziritism is discussed in the context of its relationship with the Jesus descriptor, Nazarene, so as to help clarify aspects of that first paragraph.
According to Robert J Miller (in Helping Jesus Fulfill Prophecy, Cascade Books / Wipf & Stock Pubs, Dec 2015; p 127) Nazarite is an anglicized form of nazir.

Spin will know that, but I'll put it here 'for prosperity'; and b/c Miller is talking about Matt 2:23
Miller 2015 Matt 2.23 Nazarite 2.JPG
Miller 2015 Matt 2.23 Nazarite 2.JPG (72.13 KiB) Viewed 3000 times

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