Apelles and the gospel of John.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Ulan
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by Ulan »

Of course, you are correct with this, too. My comment was only made with the potential of radicalization in mind, which of course was there for both sides. In the end, the question who would have been the worse pain for people with opposing religious views as soon as the respective movement reaches a position of power is rather academic though. Even undoubtedly inner-Jewish parties didn't use any kid gloves when it came to dealing with opponents.
Secret Alias
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by Secret Alias »

Thank you and for those who want me to connect this last post with the idea of Marcionism = Judaism, Stuart's bone of contention I want to emphasize that after 70 CE down through until the end of the second cwntury "Judaism" as a concept was up for grabs. What emerged under Judah the Prince had little or no resemblance to the Jewish religion known to the founders of Christianity (Mark, Paul). How could Marcionism then be understood to have opposed "Judaism" when in reality no such monolithic concept existed at the time of Marcion? If Marcion opposed something "Jewish" or "Jewishness" as such he could have done this arguing that his religion was replacing the old religion for Jews or certainly Jewish proselytes. It is only self-serving ignorance, deliberate idiocy which makes the case that Marcion opposed a monolithic concept which didn't exist in his age.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
perseusomega9
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by perseusomega9 »

It's also possible for Marcion to be anti-Judaic religion but stillbe pro Israelite or even Samaritan.
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes most certainly. And since the OP is specifically about Apelles, the Marcionite who argued Christianity was compatible with or related to Judaism, what do we do with Apelles? Do we accept that (a) Apelles demonstrates that Marcionism was compatible with Judaism or "Jewishness" (as we have already established that "Judaism" as such didn't exist in the period) or (b) take the explanation given by the Church Fathers that Apelles' "Jewishness" was a result of his apostasy from Marcionism? Why do we take (b) as the better explanation? Because it is more likely that when Tertullian or his source saw contradictions between the reports about Marcion's Christianity and Apelles's Marcionism he diligently sought after the truth, dutifully following the evidence to the historical origins of Marcionism than he put forward a trope that heretics couldn't help but rebel from themselves? Do we really believe he would have challenged inherited assumptions about Marcionism owing to his scholarly devotedness to seeking truth wherever it may lead? Or maybe some of us just like over simplifying history so it doesn't get in the way of our own prejudices. Or maybe some us are incapable of admitting how little certainty there is in this sort of historical research.

I always go back to the evidence suggesting some sort of relationship between Marcionism and the Old Latin canon. Jewish DNA takes us back to the same age and the same region

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... UJJ7U9KL-w

Rabbinic Judaism and the religion of Irenaeus might have been developed as reactions against "Jewish Marcionism"

In reality we do not know that Marcion "hated" the Creator. Evidence disputes that accusation. But we know Tertullian and Irenaeus derided, despised, rejected, ridiculed, heaped scorn upon the good God. Did some Jews develop or accept the development of the two powers/two names theology of the Pentateuch into a myth based on the mystical reading of a new apocryphal text called the gospel? Was it one of many Jewish sects in the period? I think that's a reasonable assumption.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by Secret Alias »

And what I am suggesting of course is that the dispute between Irenaeus and his followers and the so-called Marcionites had a lot to do with something rather subjective - the attitude of one group toward 'the Creator' or 'the Law.' In the case of the aforementioned 'attitude toward the Creator' which god was 'the Creator'? Elohim/Theos or Yahweh/Kurios? Did Marcion or Marcionites 'depreciate' one of these divinities? Maybe. But 'depreciating' someone is ultimately a subjective judgement.

If I think my son is the best footballer in the world and you say he's ok - I might take offense at that and say you are against my son. Trust me countless parents in youth sport have gone down this road - i.e. 'you're not giving him enough playing time/he's not on the 'A' team because ...' Don't think these theological debates are any more profound or substantial than what goes on in a Little League Baseball team.

And also consider for a moment controversies in the modern age and how each side sees the same things in completely different ways:

1. abortion - i.e. murder versus attempts to subjugate women
2. gun control - individual freedom versus community safety
3. the Clinton-Lewinsky sex scandal and the question of what is 'sexual relations.'
4. can same-sex marriage be considered 'real marriage'

The point I am bringing up here is that both sides are absolutely convinced that the other are horrible evil tyrannical people. They typically misconstrue what the other side really means or believes. Why should we consider the ancient world and reports about groups hated by a particular author allow us on their own to fully understand what that hated group believed, said, practiced etc.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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