Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

Post by Giuseppe »

When they reacted against Marcion, the Gnostic heretics seem very 'proto-Catholic' and therefore they are late as well as the proto-catholics:
[Basilides] ha a positive opinion of the creator who can naturally be known, a knowledge that is unlimited beauty of an insurmontable creation. As a result, Basilides accepts marriage, and not only admits Jesus' baptism, like the Valentinians, but even celebrates it.
(M. Vinzent, Christ's resurrection, p. 179)
Melito of Sardis ... also sides with Justin against Marcion in accepting the Jewish scriptures.
(p. 176)
Contrary to Marcion, Valentinus did not despise the created world. He admitted that the universe was not a perfect product, yet 'thye defect within the act of modeling' was remediated by God's name in men.
...On the other hand, Valentinus sided again with Marcion and tried to position his view of Christ' s bodily constitution between the extremes of pure docetism, according to which Jesus in his divinity could neither drink nor eat, and pure creationism, according to which jesus was nothing but a human being of lesh and bones.
(p. 102)
Marcion seems to have suggested non just an angelic but also a glorious sun-like, astral and sideric nature of the Lord's body. Apelles added the gradual assumption of angelic matter during the descent and the discarding of it again during Christ's ascent.
(p. 122)
The setting of Cerinthus’ proclamation is, as Charles E. Hill notes, “very different from, and arguably earlier than, that of Valentinianism”: he took Jesus as a natural offspring of Joseph and Mary.50 Hill proposes that Cerinthus was a predecessor of Cerdo and Marcion, who also taught that the God who made the world was not the highest God, who was proclaimed by Jesus, and that the Creator was ignorant of this supreme and only good God. The Christologies of Cerinthus and Marcion differ notably, but Hill assumes that the adoptionism of Cerinthus was a different component of his thought that was not taken up by Marcion. According to Hill, the theology of Cerinthus was a coherent mixture of different ideas.51 I have some difficulties in accepting this stimulating theory. It is not quite clear how the revolutionary idea of a highest and good God versus the ignorant Creator God would have reached Cerinthus in early second-century Asia. Since all the teachers that make this sort of distinction are later than Cerinthus, it is difficult to perceive where it came from.52 Furthermore, I find it difficult to imagine a process in which Cerinthus, as the first Christian teacher known to us, could have adopted a part of such drastic, novel and anti-Biblical worldview and made it a neat part of his own theology, which leaned on the primitive adoptionist Christology.
(Author: Matti Myllykoski; Source: A Companion to Second-Century Christian 'Heretics', p. 231, my bold)

Note the contradiction in the words of last quote:

1) Cerinthus is not a proponent of gnostic marcionite dualism because Cerinthus comes before Marcion.
2) because Cerinthus leaned on the primitive adoptionist Christology.
3) but adoptionism is post-Marcion, not pre-Marcion.

I would say it is the exact contrary: adoptionism, as separationism, as incarnationalism, as ditheism, as monarchianism, as claims of be possessed by Christ (shared by Simon Magus and Mani, too), are all more or less timide or strong reactions against Marcion's alienus deus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

Post by Peter Kirby »

Kapyong wrote:Thanks for contributing gents :)
Peter Kirby wrote: (G.Mark is) essentially, a type of docetic (or, if you prefer, an adoptionist), to the extent that it identified as "Christ" and the "Son of God" that spirit which entered into Jesus the Nazarene at baptism.
Yes, an intriguing clue.
But there seems to be a bit of a stretch from adoptionist to docetic ?

I guess I'll go read some heretics next...
:)


Kapyong
The terminology confusion is more of a contemporary concern / definitional squabble.

We're probably better off dropping both words entirely whenever actually attempting to reason about the past. Otherwise, we'll spin ourselves around and/or miscommunicate, based on nothing more than slippery definitions.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

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Giuseppe wrote:
(G.Mark is) essentially, a type of docetic (or, if you prefer, an adoptionist), to the extent that it identified as "Christ" and the "Son of God" that spirit which entered into Jesus the Nazarene at baptism.
If Christ is the spirit, then In that case who introduced 'Jesus the Nazarene' ?

Was he introduced because he was historical?

Or was he introduced because an adoptionist Mark represents already a timid reaction against Marcion's Gospel ?
Try reading the Gospel of Mark as if it were the introduction of a Jesus the Nazarene who played the part of the physical vessel for the spiritual Christ. Try considering that the Gospel of Mark itself may have been the innovator (although perhaps the version we know has been edited a bit).

We could come up with several hypotheses for why this development took place.
Giuseppe wrote:The trend would be that, then:

a mythical Jesus Christ in the archontic sub-lunary realm (to condemn that realm) . Evidence: Paul + Hebrews.

a docetical Jesus Christ on the terra firma (to condemn both this world and his creator god) . Evidence: Marcion's Gospel

Jesus the Nazarene distinct from the spirit of Christ (to save the creator god of this world, but not this world) . Evidence: Mark, Cerinthus, Apelles, Basilides, Valentinus, Carpocrates, Gospel of John.

Jesus the Nazarene strictu sensu Christ (to save both the creator god and this world). Evidence: Matthew and Luke-Acts.
Sounds pretty reasonable (... although we could spend a lot of time trying to figure out whether 2 [Marcionite] or 3 [Cerinthian] came first).
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Giuseppe
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

Post by Giuseppe »

Try reading the Gospel of Mark as if it were the introduction of a Jesus the Nazarene who played the part of the physical vessel for the spiritual Christ.
That is a possibility, but Mark frankly does not seem to have that revolutionary message that I would reserve to the very first gospel. Honestly, my mythicism is relative: if Mcn is the first gospel, then the mythicism is true, otherwise if Mark is really the first gospel, I would not be so sure about my same convictions (even if I realize perfectly the vaste extent to which Mark is allegorical, symbolic, etc).

Maybe I am too idealistic when I wish that the first Gospel was so revolutionary as to be what Dante calls:

Poca favilla gran fiamma seconda (Paradiso I, 34)

A little spark is followed by great flame (Paradiso I, 34)


after all, the reason why many are historicist is that they fail to think at the entrance of Jesus on earth as something of ordinary, 'therefore' Jesus existed.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
iskander
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

Post by iskander »

Marcion never was; it is only an invented phantom.


Marcion Was a Heretic Invented in the Third Century to Gloss Over the Controversies Associated with St Mark in Second Century Palestine



http://stephanhuller.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... third.html
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Giuseppe
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

Post by Giuseppe »

That is his respected view.

But it sounds a little too much of conspiracy theory and/or possibiliter fallacy and/or distorted love for ancestral and marginal Judaism (to the point of dismissing a priori the only possibility that the author of the first Gospel was a sincere hater of the god of Jews).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
iskander
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

Post by iskander »

If I had to compress the Gospel of Mark into a very few words I would say: Hashem is a tribal god .


Was Hashem invented to exterminate the tribe of the Amaleik?.
77 Mitzvos Aseh That Apply Today
There are 613 (Taryag) Mitzvos, 248 Mitzvos Aseh and 365 Lo Saaseh. But how many of them apply today?

The Mitzvos Aseh are listed below.
77. Michiyas Amaleik - To destroy Amaleik.
http://revach.net/lists/article.php?id=39
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MrMacSon
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

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iskander wrote:Marcion never was; it is only an invented phantom.
Marcion Was a Heretic Invented in the Third Century to Gloss Over the Controversies Associated with St Mark in Second Century Palestine

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... third.html
That seems to be a reasonable proposition - 'Marcion' "the person" could have been invented to focus the disdain for other theologies on one person - a from of anthropomorphism (euhemerizing the 'heresy').

They were focusing on individuals entities as potential or alleged saviors (ie. seeking a single authoritarian much like we do today; especially with the election of Presidents ...). The same 'thinking' would seek to focus on a 'defined' single enemy.
iskander
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

Post by iskander »

MrMacSon wrote:
iskander wrote:Marcion never was; it is only an invented phantom.
Marcion Was a Heretic Invented in the Third Century to Gloss Over the Controversies Associated with St Mark in Second Century Palestine

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... third.html
That seems to be a reasonable proposition - 'Marcion' "the person" could have been invented to focus the disdain for other theologies on one person - a from of anthropomorphism (euhemerizing the 'heresy').

They were focusing on individuals entities as potential or alleged saviors (ie. seeking a single authoritarian much like we do today; especially with the election of Presidents ...). The same 'thinking' would seek to focus on a 'defined' single enemy.
Marcion wants to know how a perfect and loving god could be compatible with an imperfect and uncaring world.
One model says that god makes the bad and the good things that exist in this world.
Another model says that god makes the good things and satan is responsible for the bad things. Marcion calls satan by the name of demiurge , "euhemerizing the 'heresy'" means nothing.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Kapyong's Jesus Myth Theory

Post by MrMacSon »

iskander wrote: Marcion wants to know how a perfect and loving god could be compatible with an imperfect and uncaring world.
One model says that god makes the bad and the good things that exist in this world.
Another model says that god makes the good things and satan is responsible for the bad things. Marcion calls satan by the name of demiurge , "euhemerizing the 'heresy'" means nothing.
You missed my point completely, which was Marcionism may not have had a Marcion.
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