More Talmud Business with Jesus

[Kris]

Ok-- I am really trying to get a handle on this information that I ran across on the internet from Moriel Ministries-- which seems to be a Messianic Christian group. They tend to try to show how the Jews really knew that Jesus was the messiah, and reference a lot of Talmudic material as a way to back themselves up. However, they do not seem to show the actual quotes from these sources, which is frustrating for me because I like to see what the text ACTUALLY says rather than get an interpretation of what it says.

In an article that was on this website, the writer talks about the 70 Weeks of Daniel and how Jesus fits this bill. Here is a link to the entire article:

https://www.moriel.org/online-sermons/2 ... aniel.html

The part that I am struggling with is here:

The Talmudic literature refers to this and confirms the Christian interpretation in Yaqut, Volume 2, page 79d of the Nazir edition 32B, also the Midrash Bereshit. I got it from page 243 of the Warsaw Edition. The Messiah was to exit in 33 A.D. The Sanhedrin said the same thing. The Messiah was to come and die before the second temple was destroyed.

I can't find any references to the Midrash Bereshit, Warsaw Edition and whether it specifically says that the Messiah was to exit in 33 A.D. I tried to look up the other texts as well, but found them problematic to locate also. Does anybody know about these sources and what they really say?

I would think that that this type of information would be somewhat damning to the Jews argument that Jesus wasn't the messiah if this kind of thing was really in these documents. But I also figured out that the Warsaw edition looks to have been written in the 1800's-- so could they have put stuff about Jesus in at a later time with the earlier versions not reflecting this?

Help!!

[MrMacSon]

I gave you what I had been led to believe were some passages - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 005#p48005 - which you have failed to acknowledge, or comment on, and you have started another thread ...

eta: and Andrew Criddle gave you a relatively good source of information -

There is a reasonably OK wiki article Jesus in the Talmud

[Kris]

This article was different from the last. I really did appreciate your comments on the other post, and had read the Wiki page which was helpful.

I was just trying to learn more about these specific quotes that this author makes and whether the text really says what he says it does. I don't understand that much about the Talmud and Jewish thought-- so I was trying to learn more about the Yalkut and the the Bereshit.

[andrewcriddle]

Ok-- I am really trying to get a handle on this information that I ran across on the internet from Moriel Ministries-- which seems to be a Messianic Christian group. They tend to try to show how the Jews really knew that Jesus was the messiah, and reference a lot of Talmudic material as a way to back themselves up. However, they do not seem to show the actual quotes from these sources, which is frustrating for me because I like to see what the text ACTUALLY says rather than get an interpretation of what it says.

In an article that was on this website, the writer talks about the 70 Weeks of Daniel and how Jesus fits this bill. Here is a link to the entire article:

https://www.moriel.org/online-sermons/2 ... aniel.html

The part that I am struggling with is here:

The Talmudic literature refers to this and confirms the Christian interpretation in Yaqut, Volume 2, page 79d of the Nazir edition 32B, also the Midrash Bereshit. I got it from page 243 of the Warsaw Edition. The Messiah was to exit in 33 A.D. The Sanhedrin said the same thing. The Messiah was to come and die before the second temple was destroyed.

I can't find any references to the Midrash Bereshit, Warsaw Edition and whether it specifically says that the Messiah was to exit in 33 A.D. I tried to look up the other texts as well, but found them problematic to locate also. Does anybody know about these sources and what they really say?

I would think that that this type of information would be somewhat damning to the Jews argument that Jesus wasn't the messiah if this kind of thing was really in these documents. But I also figured out that the Warsaw edition looks to have been written in the 1800's-- so could they have put stuff about Jesus in at a later time with the earlier versions not reflecting this?

Help!!

Midrash Bereshit is presumably Bereshit (Genesis) Rabbah the Talmudic Midrash on Genesis.

Andrew Criddle

[iskander]

Ok-- I am really trying to get a handle on this information that I ran across on the internet from Moriel Ministries-- which seems to be a Messianic Christian group. They tend to try to show how the Jews really knew that Jesus was the messiah, and reference a lot of Talmudic material as a way to back themselves up. However, they do not seem to show the actual quotes from these sources, which is frustrating for me because I like to see what the text ACTUALLY says rather than get an interpretation of what it says.

In an article that was on this website, the writer talks about the 70 Weeks of Daniel and how Jesus fits this bill. Here is a link to the entire article:

https://www.moriel.org/online-sermons/2 ... aniel.html

The part that I am struggling with is here:

The Talmudic literature refers to this and confirms the Christian interpretation in Yaqut, Volume 2, page 79d of the Nazir edition 32B, also the Midrash Bereshit. I got it from page 243 of the Warsaw Edition. The Messiah was to exit in 33 A.D. The Sanhedrin said the same thing. The Messiah was to come and die before the second temple was destroyed.

I can't find any references to the Midrash Bereshit, Warsaw Edition and whether it specifically says that the Messiah was to exit in 33 A.D. I tried to look up the other texts as well, but found them problematic to locate also. Does anybody know about these sources and what they really say?

I would think that that this type of information would be somewhat damning to the Jews argument that Jesus wasn't the messiah if this kind of thing was really in these documents. But I also figured out that the Warsaw edition looks to have been written in the 1800's-- so could they have put stuff about Jesus in at a later time with the earlier versions not reflecting this?

Help!!

Daniel's 70 weeks , is " Double Dutch"'. Professor Peter Schafer's book, Jesus in the Talmud, is worth a look.

https://www.princeton.edu/~pschafer/
http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/S/Sc/Sch ... Talmud.pdf

[ficino]

Hi Kris, are you familiar with Come And Hear? It gives translations of the Babylonian Talmud:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/

Unfortunately, I don't know of online texts from the Midrashim. I was forced to go to the library and look at Jacob Neusner's translations.

cheers, f

[rakovsky]

Ok-- I am really trying to get a handle on this information that I ran across on the internet from Moriel Ministries-- which seems to be a Messianic Christian group. They tend to try to show how the Jews really knew that Jesus was the messiah, and reference a lot of Talmudic material as a way to back themselves up. However, they do not seem to show the actual quotes from these sources, which is frustrating for me because I like to see what the text ACTUALLY says rather than get an interpretation of what it says.

In an article that was on this website, the writer talks about the 70 Weeks of Daniel and how Jesus fits this bill. Here is a link to the entire article:

https://www.moriel.org/online-sermons/2 ... aniel.html

The part that I am struggling with is here:

The Talmudic literature refers to this and confirms the Christian interpretation in Yaqut, Volume 2, page 79d of the Nazir edition 32B, also the Midrash Bereshit. I got it from page 243 of the Warsaw Edition. The Messiah was to exit in 33 A.D. The Sanhedrin said the same thing. The Messiah was to come and die before the second temple was destroyed.

I can't find any references to the Midrash Bereshit, Warsaw Edition and whether it specifically says that the Messiah was to exit in 33 A.D. I tried to look up the other texts as well, but found them problematic to locate also. Does anybody know about these sources and what they really say?

I would think that that this type of information would be somewhat damning to the Jews argument that Jesus wasn't the messiah if this kind of thing was really in these documents. But I also figured out that the Warsaw edition looks to have been written in the 1800's-- so could they have put stuff about Jesus in at a later time with the earlier versions not reflecting this?

Help!!

Yeah I prefer when they show the original quote.
Let me know if you find it or if you write to Moriel.
The closest I know to what you said was that the Talmud bans calculating the end times because people would conclude from the calculation that the Messiah should have come. Maimonides wrote that this was regarding Daniel 9.

[rakovsky]

The site ristosantala.com says:

The most widely accepted Jewish exegete RaMBaM, Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon, better known as "Maimonides", wrote to his friends the same kind of encouraging letters as the Apostle Paul wrote. In his letter IGERET TEIMAN he says this of our theme:

"But Daniel has elucidated to us the profundities of the knowledge of the End Times. However, since they are secret, the Wise, may their memory be blessed, have barred the calculation of the days of the Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah. For this reason the Wise, may their memory be blessed, have decreed: cursed be he who calculates the End Times... But we cannot assert that Daniel was wrong in his reckoning... "103

See :
http://www.ristosantala.com/rsla/OT/OT12.html