The secret of the sacrifices

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

The secret of the sacrifices

Post by iskander »

This talk on sacrifices explains the origin of the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus.

The secret of the sacrifices
http://www.torahcafe.com/rabbi-avrohom- ... 2837a.html

Beginning at minute 16 the lecturer explains that the korbanot was (is, could be ) interpreted by some Israelites as a vicarious sacrifice : the animal was killed instead of humans as an act of divine kindness.

The animal stood for humans: the innards and fat of the animal burnt on the altar stood for human thoughts; the legs stood for human activity; and the blood of the animal stood for human blood, That God was willing to accept the offering of an animal showed his mercy and kindness towards humanity.

Sacrificing animals to gods and sharing the meat with god was a sacred duty in almost every ancient religion . Judaism appear to have become obsessed with the significance of this ritual and finally this ugly obsession infected the gentiles.
Charles Wilson
Posts: 2098
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: The secret of the sacrifices

Post by Charles Wilson »

iskander wrote: Judaism appear to have become obsessed with the significance of this ritual and finally this ugly obsession infected the gentiles.
Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Vespasian":

"Again, when he was dining, an ox that was ploughing shook off its yoke, burst into the dining-room, and after scattering the servants, fell at the very feet of Vespasian as he reclined at table, and bowed its neck as if suddenly tired out..."

Josephus, Wars..., 7, 1, 3:

"So when they had all these honors bestowed on them, according to his own appointment made to every one, and he [Titus] had wished all sorts of happiness to the whole army, he came down, among the great acclamations which were made to him, and then betook himself to offer thank-offerings [to the gods], and at once sacrificed a vast number of oxen, that stood ready at the altars, and distributed them among the army to feast on..."

I believe that this is a practice in common use regardless of the warring cultures here. What needed to be suppressed (by the Romans) was the Hasmonean reliance on the Temple Ritual, which was an emblem of the Hasmonean Piety and a Proof that the Hasmoneans were "from God". The Hasmoneans were a threat to Roman Hegemony (See: Josephus describing "Eleazar" carrying the Battering Ram's Head to the top of the wall and being struck down.). The Temple had to be destroyed and all of the Ritual that went with it. What you see as an "ugly obsession [which] infected the gentiles" was no such thing. The 'ugly obsession" (to the Romans) was the Hasmonean/Hebraic Claim to Divine Rulership and Priesthood.

CW
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The secret of the sacrifices

Post by iskander »

Charles Wilson wrote:
iskander wrote: Judaism appear to have become obsessed with the significance of this ritual and finally this ugly obsession infected the gentiles.
Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Vespasian":

"Again, when he was dining, an ox that was ploughing shook off its yoke, burst into the dining-room, and after scattering the servants, fell at the very feet of Vespasian as he reclined at table, and bowed its neck as if suddenly tired out..."

Josephus, Wars..., 7, 1, 3:

"So when they had all these honors bestowed on them, according to his own appointment made to every one, and he [Titus] had wished all sorts of happiness to the whole army, he came down, among the great acclamations which were made to him, and then betook himself to offer thank-offerings [to the gods], and at once sacrificed a vast number of oxen, that stood ready at the altars, and distributed them among the army to feast on..."

I believe that this is a practice in common use regardless of the warring cultures here. What needed to be suppressed (by the Romans) was the Hasmonean reliance on the Temple Ritual, which was an emblem of the Hasmonean Piety and a Proof that the Hasmoneans were "from God". The Hasmoneans were a threat to Roman Hegemony (See: Josephus describing "Eleazar" carrying the Battering Ram's Head to the top of the wall and being struck down.). The Temple had to be destroyed and all of the Ritual that went with it. What you see as an "ugly obsession [which] infected the gentiles" was no such thing. The 'ugly obsession" (to the Romans) was the Hasmonean/Hebraic Claim to Divine Rulership and Priesthood.

CW
Technically speaking, substitutionary atonement is the name given to a number of Christian models of the atonement that all regard Jesus as dying as a substitute for others, 'instead of' them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement
I am trying to understand the Christian doctrine of" substitutionary atonement" as in wiki.
The ox of Suetonius is very interesting and it may be the answer, but I would like to explore the possibility of it being an inventive derivation of the biblical sacrificial cult.
From the video, The secret of the sacrifices, I extracted this slide which informs on the sacrificial process
Attachments
korban0.PNG
korban0.PNG (117.02 KiB) Viewed 8077 times
Last edited by iskander on Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The secret of the sacrifices

Post by iskander »

iskander wrote:From the video, The secret of the sacrifices, I extracted this slide which informs on the sacrificial process
The imposition of hands on the sacrificial animal transfer the sins of the guilty sinner to the innocent animal.
Verbal confession of sins is associated with the imposition of hands .
Attachments
korban01.PNG
korban01.PNG (176.28 KiB) Viewed 8029 times
Last edited by iskander on Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The secret of the sacrifices

Post by iskander »

The first ever proto-orthodox Christianity was the temple in Jerusalem.


The Israelite was a sinner who confessed his sins in the temple ; an innocent perfect animal was burnt in his place . God showed his mercy by allowing this sinner to escape the divine retribution .God also showed his justice by the burning of the innocent animal. Mercy and justice were each justified.


The sacrifice was performed by a caste of priests who acted as intermediaries between God and the sinner. This proto-catholic ritual is associated with prayers, hymns and penitence in the manner of fasting.


The sacrificial ceremony needed to be protected and extended beyond the geography of the temple of Jerusalem.
iskander wrote:From the video, The secret of the sacrifices, I extracted this slide which informs on the sacrificial process
Attachments
korban02.PNG
korban02.PNG (116.18 KiB) Viewed 7984 times
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The secret of the sacrifices

Post by iskander »

Charles Wilson wrote:
iskander wrote: Judaism appear to have become obsessed with the significance of this ritual and finally this ugly obsession infected the gentiles.
Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Vespasian":

"Again, when he was dining, an ox that was ploughing shook off its yoke, burst into the dining-room, and after scattering the servants, fell at the very feet of Vespasian as he reclined at table, and bowed its neck as if suddenly tired out..."

Josephus, Wars..., 7, 1, 3:

"So when they had all these honors bestowed on them, according to his own appointment made to every one, and he [Titus] had wished all sorts of happiness to the whole army, he came down, among the great acclamations which were made to him, and then betook himself to offer thank-offerings [to the gods], and at once sacrificed a vast number of oxen, that stood ready at the altars, and distributed them among the army to feast on..."

I believe that this is a practice in common use regardless of the warring cultures here. What needed to be suppressed (by the Romans) was the Hasmonean reliance on the Temple Ritual, which was an emblem of the Hasmonean Piety and a Proof that the Hasmoneans were "from God". The Hasmoneans were a threat to Roman Hegemony (See: Josephus describing "Eleazar" carrying the Battering Ram's Head to the top of the wall and being struck down.). The Temple had to be destroyed and all of the Ritual that went with it. What you see as an "ugly obsession [which] infected the gentiles" was no such thing. The 'ugly obsession" (to the Romans) was the Hasmonean/Hebraic Claim to Divine Rulership and Priesthood.

CW
Hi Charles,
Do you still support a Roman origin for Christianity?
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The secret of the sacrifices

Post by rakovsky »

iskander wrote: Do you still support a Roman origin for Christianity?
Twice a year, at Yom Kippur and Passover, Jesus and his Jewish followers saw or heard about the ram and lamb atonement/commemoration sacrifices and they thought: "We really need to start a new religion with repetitive atonement meals based on Roman sacrifices".
(joke)

The world of "Biblical criticism" has alot to offer with independent thinking, but sometimes its propositions go in unexpected directions, don't they?

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The secret of the sacrifices

Post by iskander »

rakovsky wrote:
iskander wrote: Do you still support a Roman origin for Christianity?
Twice a year, at Yom Kippur and Passover, Jesus and his Jewish followers saw or heard about the ram and lamb atonement/commemoration sacrifices and they thought: "We really need to start a new religion with repetitive atonement meals based on Roman sacrifices".
(joke)

The world of "Biblical criticism" has alot to offer with independent thinking, but sometimes its propositions go in unexpected directions, don't they?
LOL
The temple ritual of confession, sacrifice, prayers, music etc. was the model and inspiration for the Catholic sacrificial mass.
Jesus was one Israelite dissenter behaving like the Catholic dissenter Jan Hus did.
A nation of priests. Holy, holy, holy the redeeming ox and the redeeming lamb

From the video, The secret of the sacrifices, I extracted this slide which informs on the sacrificial process
Attachments
korban03.PNG
korban03.PNG (155.95 KiB) Viewed 7936 times
Charles Wilson
Posts: 2098
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: The secret of the sacrifices

Post by Charles Wilson »

iskander wrote: Do you still support a Roman origin for Christianity?
Yes. The last major theme I saw was the authorship of the Empty Tomb, although the division of the story into 4 parts is still a mystery. It appears to be built around the "Joke" surrounding the Death of Otho and the offer of Imperial rule to Verginius Rufus. Otho was given the Support of the Legions of the Flavians. Vitellius was thoroughly despised by them. At the Death of Otho "at dawn" (See Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Otho"), various Soldiers seek out Verginius to...ummm..."offer" the Throne to Verginius Rufus. He sneaks out the back door (Plutarch,Life of Otho, last coupla paragraphs). Otho is hastily buried/cremated and a small tomb is built. The "Empty Tomb" works on 2 levels. Who wrote about VR? That would be Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. Homework assignment: Find out what Tacitus and Pliny did at his funeral and why.

To me, this cements the earliest date for all of this - now including the Empty Tomb - at 97-ish. The Holy Spirit is the Damnatio'd Domitian. The Baptism of John (Known by...13 people?) is replaced by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So...Yes!, I still believe that the Working Thesis points to "The Romans did it". "Mucianus" is the Template for "Paul". Mucianus loved Titus and probably worked to Glorify Titus after turning Imperial Power to Vespasian. Mucianus dies circa 75. Therefore, there is no recognizable form of Christianity until after 75-ish. Domitian holds the pen last - He thinks. The Redactors after Domitian formalize and finalize it.

However, my Main Interest if still in learning about the Mishmarot Priesthood and the Story of Peter who comes from one of the Priestly Communities ("Immer"). " 'N you can look it up".
rakovsky wrote:Twice a year, at Yom Kippur and Passover, Jesus and his Jewish followers saw or heard about the ram and lamb atonement/commemoration sacrifices and they thought: "We really need to start a new religion with repetitive atonement meals based on Roman sacrifices".
(joke)
The world of "Biblical criticism" has alot to offer with independent thinking, but sometimes its propositions go in unexpected directions, don't they?
Yes, they do.
http://studybible.info/strongs/H563

Toggle between this and the next word, H564. Note that this is without Diacritics. Without the Diacriticals, the words are identical. There is an immediate wordplay on "Lamb" and the Mishmarot Group "Immer". The correct phrase is therefore, "The Romans saw that the Slaughter at the Temple came under the Courses of Bilgah and Immer. So, this event is rewritten to show that the "Lamb" was not Immer but "Jesus".

Neat trick, huh?

CW
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The secret of the sacrifices

Post by iskander »

Jesus Cleanses the Temple
13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.

15Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

16He told those who were selling the doves, “Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father’s house a marketplace!


How does your model explain Christianity? , For example in my model his anger in John 2:15 and his ignoring of the sacrificial cult is explained so:
The daily sacrifice was loathed by the Sadducees.
Jesus rejection of the daily sacrifice would explain his behaviour in John 2:15

From the video, The secret of the sacrifices, I extracted this slide which informs on the sacrificial process
Attachments
korban04.PNG
korban04.PNG (137.24 KiB) Viewed 7886 times
Post Reply